# Bait bikes and cars: a great idea or entrapment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2011, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502 "2011-05-11T11:05:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/61 "2011-05-11T20:36:11Z")
According to [this story](http://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/2009/07/26/0726baitcar.html), the couple was actually charged with burglary of a vehicle. I don’t know Texas law, but based only on the name of the offense, I suspect that that the elements of the crime are breaking and entering a car with the intent to commit a crime therein. This makes the charge much more defensible. The man puts on gloves and tries to use a screwdriver to open the trunk. A jury could have concluded that he intended to steal. Of course, again, if the jury believed him, then he’s acquitted. But he didn’t take the chance. The burglary charge against him (a misdemeanor) was dismissed and he pled to criminal mischief, a less serious misdemeanor punishable only by a fine. The prosecutors then agreed to a deferred disposition on that charge – it would be dismissed without a finding of guilt if he had no further trouble with the law for 30 days. He did not, the the charge was erased, leaving no conviction on his record at all. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/62 "2011-05-11T23:59:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > You’re confusing two issues. > > Remember: “…merely afford[ing] opportunities or facilities for the commission of the offense does not defeat the prosecution…” > > The police simply put the opportunity in front of them. They didn’t urge them or even communicate with them in any way that pushed them into trying to open the trunk. So there’s no entrapment. Not to hijack the thread, but under this definition it seems that when the cops send 20 year olds in convenience stores to buy beer, that is entrapment. Through their agent (the 20 year old), they are inducing the clerk to commit a crime, no? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/63 "2011-05-12T00:29:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But he didn’t take the chance. The burglary charge against him (a misdemeanor) was dismissed and he pled to criminal mischief, a less serious misdemeanor punishable only by a fine. The prosecutors then agreed to a deferred disposition on that charge – it would be dismissed without a finding of guilt if he had no further trouble with the law for 30 days. He did not, the the charge was erased, leaving no conviction on his record at all. Set the legal defensibility aside, and look at the last line of that article: > [@](#): > > “To hell with being a concerned citizen,” Ledford said. “You hear stories of someone getting mugged and no one gets involved. Now I see why.” This is why I think such prosecutions are bad. We want to discourage actual thieves. At the same time, I want to live in a world wherein neighbors look out for one another, who are willing to take minor personal risks in order to protect one another from harm. If it were impossible to design a justice system that distinguished between thieves and concerned citizens, then sure, I could understand sacrificing the occasional Ledford in order to catch a bunch of thieves. But we can easily distinguish between the two. Real thieves don’t call the police to report an easy target, for example. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/64 "2011-05-12T00:47:11Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I’m not up for trying to track down the costs of this at the moment, but I’d wager it’s not all that costly. I don’t believe the GPS equipment is all that expensive…hell, they could just leave an iPhone\* under the seat and that would do the trick. As for the car, they impound and scrap cars all the time, so I’m sure they could use one of those ones. And as for the dud nights…who cares? It doesn’t cost anything to just leave it sitting around all night. At most they just have to go and move it from one neighborhood to the next every 7 or 8 hours. > And since it’s a bait car, it’s not like an officer has to sit an monitor it for hours on end, they just have to notice that it’s gone and then find out where it is. I’m sure whatever GPS system they use could alert someone to that automatically. > > \*I’m not saying that they would use an iPhone, I’m just saying that if an iPhone can do it, I’m sure they can come up with a way to do it that would cost something on the order of a few hundred dollars as opposed to several thousand. > > ETA, WRT cost, this is effectively what OnStar does, and that doesn’t seem to cost to much. From what I understand they usually stake out the bait cars. For one thing they don’t usually use whatever sloppy jalopy is in the impound yard-- they use often-stolen later model vehicles as bait. Even with the GPS if they don’t get the would-be thief immediately they’ll probably lose a car from time to time, and they don’t want to have to write a fancy new car off. They also usually have goodies in plain sight in the car to lure would-be car prowlers (and maybe get them to notice the keys in the ignition), and just having a tracker wouldn’t catch those people. In the case of the This American Life guy, apparently they were staking out the car for days to weeks since they just caught him fooling around with the car before he’d actually moved it. It seems like the bait cars are a great idea for areas that have high car theft rates, but in areas without high car theft rates, it’d mostly just be catching generic criminals who just so happened to see an opportunity. I could see it sort of approaching the hazy line between the police preventing crimes and creating crimes. Sure it’s legal, but is it really worth all the effort to catch some low-rent crook or druggie who wouldn’t be a car thief if not for the snazzy new car sitting there with the keys in the ignition and an iPad on the dash? Like other honey-pot stings, they are extremely effective at getting arrests but are of questionable effectiveness if they’re not targeted in areas that have high rates of those crimes. Of course, I don’t know how widespread these bait car programs are these days. The one I’ve heard the most about is the one in Surrey BC, which definitely has a car theft problem which the bait car program has reportedly been effective at reducing. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/65 "2011-05-12T17:10:46Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not to hijack the thread, but under this definition it seems that when the cops send 20 year olds in convenience stores to buy beer, that is entrapment. Through their agent (the 20 year old), they are inducing the clerk to commit a crime, no? Not at all. they are providing an _opportunity_ for the clerk to commit a crime, but in no way inducing the clerk to do so. If the clerk does his or her job properly and obeys the law by asking for ID and then refusing sale when there is no legitimate ID, there is no crime committed. If the clerk actually commits a crime by selling the alcohol to someone without a legitimate ID, then they’re in trouble. A “bait purchaser” in no way compels a clerk to act in an unlawful manner. It merely provides an observable opportunity for someone do to so. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/66 "2011-05-12T17:59:40Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > Not at all. they are providing an _opportunity_ for the clerk to commit a crime, but in no way inducing the clerk to do so. If the clerk does his or her job properly and obeys the law by asking for ID and then refusing sale when there is no legitimate ID, there is no crime committed. If the clerk actually commits a crime by selling the alcohol to someone without a legitimate ID, then they’re in trouble. > > A “bait purchaser” in no way compels a clerk to act in an unlawful manner. It merely provides an observable opportunity for someone do to so. OTOH, I think of the ‘bait purchaser’ were to say something like “C’mon, I left my ID at home. How about I just give you an extra five bucks so I don’t have to run and get it” or something along those lines, then then there might be an entrapment case. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/67 "2011-05-12T19:20:38Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > In the case of the This American Life guy, apparently they were staking out the car for days to weeks since they just caught him fooling around with the car before he’d actually moved it. That kinda strikes me as odd - the car was there for weeks and was either never “stolen” (making me wonder about that parking spot’s value as a trap site) or got stolen and was returned to the original spot each time and parked identically, such that the citizen never noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/68 "2011-05-12T19:45:48Z")
I’ve no problem with the idea of bait bikes, but I don’t think I agree that nothing else can be done about the problem. Around here, you can (and are encouraged to) register your bike with the police, and they give you a sticker with a serial number you can put on the bike (it’s almost impossible to remove). If your bike is stolen, you can report it to the police, and they can look your registration number up in their records. Then, if the guy with the continual garage sale, or any other fence, tries to sell it, the cops can take a look at the stickers and see if any of them is stolen. Catch the fences, and you remove much of the incentive from the thieves (though there will still be some thieves who steal it for their own use, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/69 "2011-05-12T19:48:17Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not to hijack the thread, but under this definition it seems that when the cops send 20 year olds in convenience stores to buy beer, that is entrapment. Through their agent (the 20 year old), they are inducing the clerk to commit a crime, no? > [@carlb](#): > > Not at all. they are providing an _opportunity_ for the clerk to commit a crime, but in no way inducing the clerk to do so. If the clerk does his or her job properly and obeys the law by asking for ID and then refusing sale when there is no legitimate ID, there is no crime committed. If the clerk actually commits a crime by selling the alcohol to someone without a legitimate ID, then they’re in trouble. > > A “bait purchaser” in no way compels a clerk to act in an unlawful manner. It merely provides an observable opportunity for someone do to so. > [@Joey\_P](#): > > OTOH, I think of the ‘bait purchaser’ were to say something like “C’mon, I left my ID at home. How about I just give you an extra five bucks so I don’t have to run and get it” or something along those lines, then then there might be an entrapment case. Generally correct. The evil being fought is the purchase of alcohol by under-age buyers. The sting agent who merely attempts to buy beer like any other customer does not trigger the entrapment defense. The agent who offers a bribe is a bit tricker. That is a prima facie showing of entrapment, but the government can argue that the agent was simply duplicating what other purchasers would also do. I would say, though, they they better have something else up their sleeve, like an offer of proof that the clerk had previously engaged in bribe-taking to sell booze. A judge could find that the $5 was so tiny a bribe as to be irrelevant, or he could find that it was the kind of conduct that overbore the clerk’s will. I think that would turn on a lot of factual finding… a clerk who was $5 short of his spring tuition payment might well be able to say, “I never once thought about taking extra money to sell alcohol to underage buyers, but the very day a desperately needed $5, here he came!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/70 "2011-05-12T20:16:21Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > In Holland the poloice uses Bait Bikes , Bait Rabi’s and Bait Gay guys Not to mention the bait herring. AKA bait. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/71 "2011-05-12T20:39:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A judge could find that the $5 was so tiny a bribe as to be irrelevant, or he could find that it was the kind of conduct that overbore the clerk’s will. I think that would turn on a lot of factual finding… a clerk who was $5 short of his spring tuition payment might well be able to say, “I never once thought about taking extra money to sell alcohol to underage buyers, but the very day a desperately needed $5, here he came!” $5 may not seem like much but then no one is likely to offer $100 to buy a six-pack of beer either. Presumably, I would guess, the $5 bribe would be successful if the clerk made a habit of collecting $5 bribes. Each one is small but if a lot of people do it then it can add up to something substantial. That goes to being able to prove the clerk is a habitual bribe taker. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/72 "2011-05-12T22:44:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve no problem with the idea of bait bikes, but I don’t think I agree that nothing else can be done about the problem. Around here, you can (and are encouraged to) register your bike with the police, and they give you a sticker with a serial number you can put on the bike (it’s almost impossible to remove). If your bike is stolen, you can report it to the police, and they can look your registration number up in their records. Then, if the guy with the continual garage sale, or any other fence, tries to sell it, the cops can take a look at the stickers and see if any of them is stolen. Catch the fences, and you remove much of the incentive from the thieves (though there will still be some thieves who steal it for their own use, of course). But those registrations and any other serial numbers can be easily removed. Since most bikes don’t have them, a bike with no identifying information on it doesn’t raise any suspicions whatsoever and can basically be sold anywhere. Whereas a car with no VIN or engine block # is obviously stolen. We have the registration system here too, but it’s only of any use for identifying owners if they happen to find a big cache of stolen bikes. I’ve never heard of the registrations actually identifying a stolen bike that was otherwise assumed to be legit. The most effective thing you can do is engrave the registration number somewhere hidden where it won’t be removed, but then this just provides you with a means to identify your bike while still depending on you to do the footwork to actually find it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/73 "2011-05-12T23:00:10Z")
> [@](#): > > But those registrations and any other serial numbers can be easily removed. Since most bikes don’t have them, a bike with no identifying information on it doesn’t raise any suspicions whatsoever and can basically be sold anywhere. In my experience, neither of these is true. There might be some solvent that would remove the decal, but ten years of outside exposure to extremes of weather wasn’t enough to do it. I suspect that anything that _could_ remove the decal would also leave distinctive damage to the paint job, which would be nearly as big a tip-off to a stolen bike. And around here, almost all bikes are registered. It probably helps that there’s a police station conveniently located on campus where the registration is a routine process, and that there’s no fee charged for it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/74 "2011-05-13T23:11:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Generally correct. > > The evil being fought is the purchase of alcohol by under-age buyers. The sting agent who merely attempts to buy beer like any other customer does not trigger the entrapment defense. But what about the undercover prostitute who “merely” offers a blow job just like any other prostitute would do? As I understand, she must speak in euphemisms and make the John use the “pay for sex” words to avoid entrapment. I guess I can’t really see the difference between “induces” and “presents the situation”. If one “presents the situation” he/she, by definition, induces someone predisposed to do the activity. The situation would not have happened, but for the inducement of the undercover officer. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/75 "2011-05-14T06:04:32Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But what about the undercover prostitute who “merely” offers a blow job just like any other prostitute would do? As I understand, she must speak in euphemisms and make the John use the “pay for sex” words to avoid entrapment. > > I guess I can’t really see the difference between “induces” and “presents the situation”. If one “presents the situation” he/she, by definition, induces someone predisposed to do the activity. The situation would not have happened, but for the inducement of the undercover officer. That’s exactly it, though. It’s the difference between me posting a thread about something you think is worthy of comment, and me posting it and then PMing you a few times saying “hey, did you see this thread? It could use your input!” The former is not entrapment–I have provided an opportunity but not induced you. The latter is–I have provided an opportunity AND induced you. With the prostitute example, the ruling has generally been that if an undercover cop solicits you, that’s “inducing”, if however said undercover cop plays flirty and hard to get while acting like a prostitute, then that’s just creating a scenario. Typically in the examples that get presented, it’s only entrapment if rhetoric is used to attempt to convince someone to commit a crime–merely making available an opportunity to commit a crime is not entrapment. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/76 "2011-05-14T06:13:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Real thieves don’t call the police to report an easy target, for example. When you try, they just yell “Go away! Baitin’!” ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/77 "2011-05-14T07:04:24Z")
What difference would it make? My motorbike was stolen last year. A week later it was caught on a speed camera at twice the speed limit. A week after that a very drunk man crashed it. The police arrested him, and last month he pleaded guilty. He was banned from driving for one year and ordered to undergo a course of treatment for alcoholism. Given I would have got the same if I had crashed that drunk, I conclude that the penalty for stealing a motorbike is … Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/78 "2011-05-15T00:22:35Z")
The “Bait Car” method of placing a car in a high-crime location and leaving keys in the ignition does seem to target “the lowest rung on the ladder” of criminals. These appear as somewhat pathetic sleazebags whose departure from society (however brief) is a good thing. Still, it’s hard to see that they are major contributors to the problem of stolen cars. One hopes that the police are putting most of their efforts into catching professional/semi-professional car thieves and busting chop shops. I have no problem with leaving bikes out as bait. I don’t imagine there are multiple classes of bike thieves, unless possessing a really good set of bolt cutters makes you a “professional”. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/79 "2011-05-15T01:08:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The “Bait Car” method of placing a car in a high-crime location and leaving keys in the ignition does seem to target “the lowest rung on the ladder” of criminals. These appear as somewhat pathetic sleazebags whose departure from society (however brief) is a good thing. > > Still, it’s hard to see that they are major contributors to the problem of stolen cars. One hopes that the police are putting most of their efforts into catching professional/semi-professional car thieves and busting chop shops. I imagine the idea is to track the car–even a lowest-rung sleazebag is going to have some idea of where he’d fence a car before he steals it unless it’s something he’s going to take for a joyride. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/80 "2011-05-15T19:20:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The “Bait Car” method of placing a car in a high-crime location and leaving keys in the ignition does seem to target “the lowest rung on the ladder” of criminals. These appear as somewhat pathetic sleazebags whose departure from society (however brief) is a good thing. This is exactly what bothers me. The show I watched showed the cops clearly targeting certain neighborhoods and certain types of people. They used a Cadillac Escalade with the keys in the ignition and the door open. Why not park a Ferrari with keys in the ignition in a “good neighborhood” and bust some rich kids going out for a joy ride instead of trying to ruin the lives of people who already have a tough life. Trying to catch professional thieves is fine with me, but going after joy riders by tempting them with an Escalade is not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502.md?page=5)