# Baizuo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749 "2019-09-05T18:13:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/21 "2019-09-06T13:12:38Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Is it possible that the US left does not see Asian-Americans as needing as much support as other minorities? They seem to be doing pretty well. Yes, and that’s the point. They are a racial minority, “America is a white supremacist society”, Asians have been (and are now being) discriminated against, so they “should” need extra support as other minorities do. But they don’t need that support. They are out-performing, not only other racial and ethnic minorities, but whites who are supposedly benefiting from privilege. It’s not supposed to work that way, in the narrative of “whiteness”. They are supposed to need excuses. They don’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/22 "2019-09-06T13:29:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > As far as I can tell from social media… And as far as I can tell from social media, Bernie Sanders is winning the Democratic nomination by a 60 percent margin. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/23 "2019-09-06T14:06:38Z")
Kimstu: From the article you quoted: > [@](#): > > One obvious point—though often overlooked—is that Asian-Americans are largely first- or second-generation immigrants, and immigrants are by definition a self-selected group. They are the ones who have been willing and able—or whose parents have been willing and able—to take the often risky journey to start a new life in a foreign land. Wouldn’t this logically apply to hispanics as well? Yet, other than the Florida Cuban community, they seem to have more in common, demographically, with the African-American community than with communities of Asian immigrants and their immediate descendants. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/24 "2019-09-06T14:59:33Z")
So let me get this straight - Chinese nationalists go online and fling around a term of derision about strawman western white liberals, because reasons? Am I following so far? Or more simply - foreigners go online to foment divisiveness of Americans. Hm, where have I heard THAT before? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/25 "2019-09-06T15:20:28Z")
Aah, I see “Divide and conquer” is still a viable strategy… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/26 "2019-09-06T15:21:29Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Wouldn’t this logically apply to hispanics as well? Hispanics have been in the US longer than WASPs… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/27 "2019-09-06T15:30:02Z")
Well, the targets aren’t strawmen or strawpeople. The targets are real. Ask yourself why would a rising nation, one that should be the #1 economy anytime now, be derisive about a particular faction of the west? I believe it comes from the astonishment that a nation that had such an impressive lead in practically every metric of power is inhabited by a significant fraction willing to actively hamstring itself. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/28 "2019-09-06T15:34:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ask yourself why would a rising nation, one that should be the #1 economy anytime now, be derisive about a particular faction of the west? I’m guessing the same people are staunchly opposed to protesters in Hong Kong who don’t want to have their rights trampled, so I’m inclined to think that the main issue here isn’t nationality or race, but one’s views on human rights and liberty. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/29 "2019-09-06T15:43:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m guessing the same people are staunchly opposed to protesters in Hong Kong who don’t want to have their rights trampled, so I’m inclined to think that the main issue here isn’t nationality or race, but one’s views on human rights and liberty. I think it’s about the nature of power. Look at how far China has come and how quickly. It’s impressive. The island creations, that new Silk Road project, the spread of Chinese power outside of Asia, internal infrastructure improvements, etc. are the results of a people who have a confident and ambitious mindset. Why wouldn’t they be amazed that the current #1 which they will probably surpass is willing to abdicate that spot. Contrary to what some would wish to believe we are a world of _competing_ nation-states. You want rights and liberty? You better not give up the mechanisms which enable one to protect those rights. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/30 "2019-09-06T15:47:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m not sure why you are framing this from the perspective of Asian-Americans, immigrants or otherwise, as this is apparently mainly a mainland Chinese thing. Now why do mainland Chinese hold modern western liberals in contempt? C’mon now it should be obvious. The folks who are expressing these sentiments appear to be competitive nationalists. Why would they respect modern western liberalism? Because I am not reading this on Chinese forums. The forums I am seeing this is on forums are frequently the liberal reaction to the anti-asian discrimination by some competitive colleges. The forum I first encountered this on was discussing the push to eliminate the SHSAT as the sole criteria for admissions to NYC’s specialized high schools. This conversation may have adopted a term that started in mainland China but the forum I am reading is filled with Koreans, Indians and other groups. Frankly, the common factor seems to be recent immigration rather than ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/31 "2019-09-06T15:55:20Z")
\*What \*forums are you reading that stuff on? Actual “liberal” ones, or white-nationalist caricatures of them? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/32 "2019-09-06T16:00:59Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > This seems to be a manufactured crisis. That said, students of Asian decent sure seem to be disadvantaged at institutions such as Harvard. Note, this is nothing new. A Korean American dormmate at the University of California in 1979 was shocked to learn he wasn’t considered a “minority.” I would say that there is a significant population of asian americans who think the left is dismissive towards asians when there is a conflict between what is good for asians and what is good for any other minority. Many on the left have a racial pecking order (and we see it expressed here), and asians are the junior partners in the push for racial justice. I believe the primary reason asians went from being overwhelmingly republican in the 1980s to overwhelmingly democrat is because so many republicans are racist, and asians started to identify republicans as the party of the reacists. Republicans no longer have a monopoly on racism in the eyes of many in the asian american community. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/33 "2019-09-06T16:19:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have run into this term more and more frequently in some online discussions and the premise seems to be that western liberals have jumped the shark. > > Don’t get me wrong, the racism we see from the right still ensures the loyalty of the asian vote but there seems to be a growing sentiment in the asian community that the woke SJW crowd is driving the train and the woke SJW crowd seems dismissive of concerns about anti-asian discrimination. > > {snip} > > Certainly noone panders for it the way they pander for the black, hispanic, lgbtq vote on the left or the racist vote on the right. How would one go about “pandering” to Asian-Americans? Another way to ask this question: What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives? > [@](#): > > Will the shift of focus away from equality of opportunity towards equality of results push asians (and many other immigrant communities) away from the Democratic party and suppress voter participation among asians (which would be very counterproductive to getting politicians to give a crap about us). What does conservatism offer Asian-Americans who desire “equality of opportunity”? Conservatives support systems that favor affluent whites over others, and they’ve showed no sign of stopping this. As much as Affirmative Action comes up in discussions about Asian-Americans, you would think at some point their ire would be focused more on the wealthy who buy their way into university and less on black and Latino students. But sadly, if your posting history is a representative view within your ethnicity, their ire stays on the wrong target. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/34 "2019-09-06T16:22:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I would say that there is a significant population of asian americans who think the left is dismissive towards asians when there is a conflict between what is good for asians and what is good for any other minority. Many on the left have a racial pecking order (and we see it expressed here), and asians are the junior partners in the push for racial justice. > > I believe the primary reason asians went from being overwhelmingly republican in the 1980s to overwhelmingly democrat is because so many republicans are racist, and asians started to identify republicans as the party of the reacists. Republicans no longer have a monopoly on racism in the eyes of many in the asian american community. Do you have any specific examples? I want to fight any “racial pecking order” or other sorts of nonsense on the left that might drive away Asian voters. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/35 "2019-09-06T16:22:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This assertion seems bizarre to me. It is not at all “inconvenient” for anybody who blames white racism for a lot of problems facing black and Hispanic people in the US to acknowledge the achievements of Asian-Americans despite white racism against Asians. I don’t know anybody who’s made “uncomfortable” by this, nor why they should be. The Baizuo premise is that success is supposed to be impossible for anyone that is not white in America’s white supremacist culture. They are uncomfortable with asian success. > [@](#): > > Because, simply put, the situations of black, Hispanic and Asian people in the US are not interchangeable. For example, as [this article notes](https://www.brookings.edu/research/asian-american-success-and-the-pitfalls-of-generalization/) And that means that it’s OK to discriminate against asians? Should “social justice” for hispanics come at the cost of social injustice for the vietnamese? We all show up in this country with whatever baggage we have. It is not our job to equalize everyone at the border, is it? > [@](#): > > I’m not trying to minimize the appalling prejudice that many Asian-Americans have had to contend with, or for that matter Irish-Americans or Jewish Americans or any other minority group that’s suffered historical discrimination. But it’s ridiculous to imagine that the experience of any one group should be assumed to be typical for any other group. That’s not the point. I think most asians americans feel that blacks in america get a raw deal but a lot of that is due to the prejudice of individuals. A type of prejudice that existed for asians at one point. Asians worked pretty hard to get out from under that prejudice and now it feels like we are being punished for our success by baizuo who are uncomfortable with our success… > [@](#): > > The only people who could think it’s “inconvenient” for liberals to acknowledge the successes of Asian-Americans while also decrying racism against black and Latino Americans are people making up a straw liberal. So you haven’t seen liberals trying to explain away asian success with theories about “white adjacency” “white proximity” “spill-over white privilege”? These are all devices that baizuo use to try to explain away the inconvenient truth that while america is a white supremacist country, success is still possible for minorities that make the extraordinary sacrifices to overcome that white supremacy and racism. And now we have to overcome that racism from the left as well as the right. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/36 "2019-09-06T16:26:48Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Is it possible that the US left does not see Asian-Americans as needing as much support as other minorities? They seem to be doing pretty well. And that’s what makes the baizuo so uncomfortable. Minorities are not supposed to succeed in a white supremacist society, its supposed to be possible only for rare individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/37 "2019-09-06T16:30:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This doesn’t mean that Asian Americans necessarily have it easy. I think it’s very reasonable to bring up and criticize college policies if they disadvantage Asian students, or other forms of possible discrimination against Asian Americans. This is the source of much of the asian american concern. The liberal left has jumped to the defense of what seems to be pretty discriminatory stuff because they like the results. It really makes it clear that asians are a junior partner in the fight for racial justice. That racial justice for groups that have historically been oppressed by a bunch of white people should come at the expense of poor asian kids. Meanwhile we preserve legacy admission for the children of mostly white people. We preserve athletic preferences for the children of mostly white people. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/38 "2019-09-06T16:37:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, and that’s the point. They are a racial minority, “America is a white supremacist society”, Asians have been (and are now being) discriminated against, so they “should” need extra support as other minorities do. > > But they don’t need that support. They are out-performing, not only other racial and ethnic minorities, but whites who are supposedly benefiting from privilege. It’s not supposed to work that way, in the narrative of “whiteness”. > > They are supposed to need excuses. They don’t. > > Regards, > Shodan I generally agree with your post but There is still a ton of racism, we should try to fix it. Racism wears on you. Some people can stoically grind it out but not everyone can. Suicide rates for minority children are much higher than suicide rates for white kids. I suspect racism has something to do with it rather than psychological fragility of minorities. What we shouldn’t do is let it become an excuse to visit injustice on others. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/39 "2019-09-06T16:38:16Z")
just to illustrate how little anyone is talking about Baizou a comparison : Google Trends Baizou vs. Cariboo [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=baizou,cariboo](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=baizou,cariboo) If you are running into this term more and more it’s because of where you’re going and not because of general popular conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/40 "2019-09-06T16:43:39Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > How would one go about “pandering” to Asian-Americans? Another way to ask this question: What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives? By and large, affirmative action. Many (although certainly not all) Asian-Americans oppose affirmative action, because they see it as a way to suppress Asian admissions (although Asians are overrepresented at many universities at a macro level, when it comes to the individual level, there is often a clear double standard whereby Asians have to score significantly higher on the SAT than other race groups in order to have the same chance of admission.) By and large, most progressives/liberals are in favor of affirmative action. Many Chinese-Americans have [rallied on WeChat (one of the most-used messaging apps in the world) to fight against affirmative action.](https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/11/asian-americans-wechat-war-affirmative-action/576328/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=3)