# Baizuo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749 "2019-09-05T18:13:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/41 "2019-09-06T16:46:07Z")
Is this just about college admissions, or is there more to it? College admissions is an entirely reasonable topic, but I’m curious if that is the extent of the concern/complaint about liberals here, or if there are other issues. If so, what other issues? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/42 "2019-09-06T16:47:23Z")
**Damuri Ajashi** , if you have an actual point to make in this thread, it’s being undercut by your inability to give any examples of how this “uncomfortableness” is expressed. And frankly, the more you use the word baizou, the more it seems like you’re adopting a creepy racist slang term. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/43 "2019-09-06T16:55:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > \*What \*forums are you reading that stuff on? Actual “liberal” ones, or white-nationalist caricatures of them? These are not partisan forums. I first encountered the term on a forum about Mayor DeBlasio’s efforts to eliminate the SHSAT as the sole criteria for admission to three of the magnet schools in NYC. The term popped up in the recent proposal to eliminate all Gifted and Talented programs to make public school more equitable. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of the participants on the forum are Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/44 "2019-09-06T16:56:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > equality of opportunity towards equality of results this is a phrase that I hear from Republicans frequently but I have never once heard someone serious\* from the left ever push for. There’s no movement toward that. There _is_ a recognition that we’re nowhere near equality of opportunity. And also, when the results are so obviously unequal, people on the left are curious as to why rather than falling back on stereotypes that are based in prejudice rather than data. \*serious = widely respected with a significant platform; serious does not mean some fringe blogger or college student who has been awake all night really looking at their hands. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/45 "2019-09-06T16:57:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is the source of much of the asian american concern. The liberal left has jumped to the defense of what seems to be pretty discriminatory stuff because they like the results. It really makes it clear that asians are a junior partner in the fight for racial justice. That racial justice for groups that have historically been oppressed by a bunch of white people should come at the expense of poor asian kids. Meanwhile we preserve legacy admission for the children of mostly white people. We preserve athletic preferences for the children of mostly white people. I don’t think this is the broad liberal position. I’m in favor of AA, but not some specific form of AA that necessarily harms Asian students. I think most AA supporters have no interest in making it harder for Asian students, and would oppose such efforts. This might be an awareness issue, if indeed such harmful policies are widespread in college admissions – and spreading awareness could do a lot to combat them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/46 "2019-09-06T16:59:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > These are not partisan forums. I first encountered the term on a forum about Mayor DeBlasio’s efforts to eliminate the SHSAT as the sole criteria for admission to three of the magnet schools in NYC. The term popped up in the recent proposal to eliminate all Gifted and Talented programs to make public school more equitable. > > I would guess that the overwhelming majority of the participants on the forum are Democrats. But talking about various tests isn’t necessarily harmful to Asians. Maybe this policy should be changed – maybe using that test as the sole criteria is leaving a lot of kids out who would be great students. Are you saying that any policy other than maintaining this particular test as the sole criteria is necessarily harmful to Asians? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/47 "2019-09-06T17:07:19Z")
My first thought when anything comes up on message boards about education, especially public/charter schools, is that parents’ comments are likely driven by an overwhelming and driving compulsion to do everything humanly possible to make sure their precious child has a slight advantage over any other bastard who might get in their way. Half of the crazies on those sort of message boards would knife a seven year old to get their precious little one into an after-school coding class. Now, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t racism in play. But since the OP can’t explain what the fuck he’s talking about other than repeating the word “discomfort” and making a reference to a thing he read on a message board probably populated by type-A parents, I’m inclined to say that there may be a more simple explanation at work here. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/48 "2019-09-06T17:09:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > How would one go about “pandering” to Asian-Americans? Another way to ask this question: What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives? Stopping taking the side of colleges engaging in anti-asian discrimination. If we saw these sort of disparities in objective criteria and subjective results the left would be screaming bloody murder. But instead it seems to be happy to toss asian kids under the bus to prevent the possibility that somewhere down the line it might pose a threat to affirmative action for the kids of more politically powerful minorities. > [@](#): > > What does conservatism offer Asian-Americans who desire “equality of opportunity”? Conservatives support systems that favor affluent whites over others, and they’ve showed no sign of stopping this. As much as Affirmative Action comes up in discussions about Asian-Americans, you would think at some point their ire would be focused more on the wealthy who buy their way into university and less on black and Latino students. But sadly, if your posting history is a representative view within your ethnicity, their ire stays on the wrong target. Asian americans generally support affirmative action. We simply don’t think discrimination against asians is a necessary element of affirmative action. Why liberals defending anti-asian discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/49 "2019-09-06T17:12:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you have any specific examples? I want to fight any “racial pecking order” or other sorts of nonsense on the left that might drive away Asian voters. The way liberals seem to defend anti-asian discrimination today because it might threaten affirmative action for favored races at some point in the future. The way that liberals want to eliminate or dilute objective measures of merit to expand diversity for favored races mostly at the expense of asian kids. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/50 "2019-09-06T17:14:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The way liberals seem to defend anti-asian discrimination today because it might threaten affirmative action for favored races at some point in the future. The way that liberals want to eliminate or dilute objective measures of merit to expand diversity for favored races mostly at the expense of asian kids. I don’t think liberals do this, broadly speaking. I don’t think most liberals have any awareness that college admissions policies (some of them, I assume, though I have very little knowledge of this subject at all) are discriminatory in any way against Asian students. EDIT: I’m a liberal, and I think I’m pretty well-informed, but I know next to nothing about college admissions policies, much less if/how they harm Asian Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/51 "2019-09-06T17:15:03Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > just to illustrate how little anyone is talking about Baizou a comparison : Google Trends Baizou vs. Cariboo > > [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=baizou,cariboo](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=baizou,cariboo) > > If you are running into this term more and more it’s because of where you’re going and not because of general popular conversation. Yes, I ran into it on a NYC education related board. NY and California is sort of where a lot of the asians live. NY asians are dealing with the push to eliminat the SHSAT and gifted and talented programs. California asians are dealing with efforts to reintroduce race based admissions into the UC system. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/52 "2019-09-06T17:19:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is this just about college admissions, or is there more to it? College admissions is an entirely reasonable topic, but I’m curious if that is the extent of the concern/complaint about liberals here, or if there are other issues. If so, what other issues? I think the college admissions is the precipitating factor but it is letting the conservative camel’s nose under the tent. We are seeing conservative asians saying 'we told you so, NOW will you listen to us?" They are leveraging this to build up opposition to affirmative action generally (something that asians have historically supported) by using the left’s own words about how racial justice for asians and affirmative action are mutually exclusive. They have a tough road ahead with Trump in office but Trump won’t always be in office. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/53 "2019-09-06T17:45:21Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What policy issues are of specific concern to Asian-Americans that are being ignored by progressives? Discrimination against Asian-Americans by prestige universities is the big obvious point right now. Asian candidates today are treated exactly like Jewish candidates were earlier in the 20th century. Harvard has already been caught putting a heavy thumb on the scale to favor other groups. That’s what the big lawsuit is about. I have no idea the _legal_ validity of the lawsuit, but Harvard was shown to be using adverse “personality” scores – as judged by people who had not even necessarily met the candidates – to weigh against the stronger “objective” measures in order to dump the applications of (apparently boring) Asian kids in favor of other groups. This is a source of serious rage. And understandably so. This is outright discrimination against a minority group, but my feeling here (perhaps wrong?) is that relatively few on the left care about it. It’s all well and good to say that Asians are “over-represented” at US universities based on their proportion of the overall population, as another poster has tried to argue, but when controlling for “objective” measures, it’s glaringly obvious that the Asian kids of identical or even superior accomplishment are very likely to be passed over for a kid who belongs to a racial grouping that has better “personality” scores. This includes, as you have indicated, the kids at expensive private schools who play rich-personality-sports like lacrosse or crew. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What does conservatism offer Asian-Americans who desire “equality of opportunity”? Conservatives support systems that favor affluent whites over others, and they’ve showed no sign of stopping this. This is completely and totally true. But politics can change over time. “We don’t have to do anything about this, because the Other Group is not doing anything about this” is not necessarily a solid long-term strategy. With that said, I agree entirely with you that the Rich-White-Sports candidates seem like a nice, plump target here. But there are political undercurrents to that (of course!) and there are other posters here on the SDMB who know an enormous amount about that topic. I don’t personally know what the best plan here would be. But I really don’t think it should be “nothing”. There’s a legitimate grievance here. An entire group of people is being forced to play the game with a much more stringent set of rules, based solely on their ethnicity, and they have every justification to be upset about that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/54 "2019-09-06T17:46:27Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > this is a phrase that I hear from Republicans frequently but I have never once heard someone serious\* from the left ever push for. There’s no movement toward that. > There _is_ a recognition that we’re nowhere near equality of opportunity. And also, when the results are so obviously unequal, people on the left are curious as to why rather than falling back on stereotypes that are based in prejudice rather than data. > \*serious = widely respected with a significant platform; serious does not mean some fringe blogger or college student who has been awake all night really looking at their hands. How about the Mayor of NYC? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/55 "2019-09-06T17:49:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think this is the broad liberal position. I’m in favor of AA, but not some specific form of AA that necessarily harms Asian students. I think most AA supporters have no interest in making it harder for Asian students, and would oppose such efforts. This might be an awareness issue, if indeed such harmful policies are widespread in college admissions – and spreading awareness could do a lot to combat them. I don’t think the term Baizuo is being directed at all liberals. Most of the people on the board are self proclaimed liberals and are pretty conventionally liberal in most other respects. They are pro-choice, anti-gun, pro-lgbtq, pro-health care, anti wall, and for the time being… pro affirmative action. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/56 "2019-09-06T17:53:34Z")
College admission has been racist against Asians for quite some time. It was widely discussed where I grew up that if you were Asian, you should not indicate any race on your college application because it will make it harder to gain admission. The history of discrimination and racism against Asians is long. From the Chinese Exclusion Act, to about 1965 or so, Asians experienced widespread discrimination. The vestiges of that is still prevalent in Asian communities. Consider that Chinese were not allowed to become citizens until about the 1940s, were not allowed to marry a white person, own land etc. It wasn’t until the 1960s where immigration from China was allowed much more than a couple hundred people per year. Chinatowns arose because Chinese could not safely travel, do business with, or transact outside of their communities. Consider if you were a Chinese person born when immigration was allowed, you would not be about 55 years old. You could have children that are between 20-35, at the point where they would be rising in their careers. But Asians are [still greatly underrepresented](https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely-group-in-the-u-s-to-be-promoted-to-management) in management positions, in law firm partnerships: > [@](#): > > Across the country, the results are the same. Our analysis of national EEOC workforce data found that Asian American white-collar professionals are the least likely group to be promoted from individual contributor roles into management — less likely than any other race, including blacks and Hispanics. And our analysis found that white professionals are about twice as likely to be promoted into management as their Asian American counterparts. > > … > > These issues aren’t confined to the tech industry. Similar concerns were raised about the legal profession in a 2017 study coauthored by Goodwin Liu, associate justice of the California Supreme Court. Published by the Yale Law School and the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association, the report found that Asian Americans are well-represented in law — they’re more than 10% of the graduates of the top 30 law schools — yet “have the highest attrition rates and lowest ratio of partners to associates among all [racial] groups.” More info at the [wiki on Bamboo Ceiling.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_ceiling) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/57 "2019-09-06T17:53:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How about the Mayor of NYC? [Well if there’s one thing we know as a fact, its that Bill de Blasio speaks for white people.](https://nypost.com/2019/08/06/bill-de-blasio-is-the-least-popular-politician-in-new-york-poll/) [Especially liberals.](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/) ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/58 "2019-09-06T17:58:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why liberals defending anti-asian discrimination? I’d answer that, but I’d have to stop beating my wife for a second. * * * * * * SWIDT? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/59 "2019-09-06T18:11:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Stopping taking the side of colleges engaging in anti-asian discrimination. If we saw these sort of disparities in objective criteria and subjective results the left would be screaming bloody murder. But instead it seems to be happy to toss asian kids under the bus to prevent the possibility that somewhere down the line it might pose a threat to affirmative action for the kids of more politically powerful minorities. > > Asian americans generally support affirmative action. We simply don’t think discrimination against asians is a necessary element of affirmative action. > > Why liberals defending anti-asian discrimination? You realize that affirmative action has to, by its intrinsic nature, discriminate? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/60 "2019-09-06T18:16:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > By and large, affirmative action. Many (although certainly not all) Asian-Americans oppose affirmative action, because they see it as a way to suppress Asian admissions (although Asians are overrepresented at many universities at a macro level, when it comes to the individual level, there is often a clear double standard whereby Asians have to score significantly higher on the SAT than other race groups in order to have the same chance of admission.) > > By and large, most progressives/liberals are in favor of affirmative action. Yes, and my point is these Asian-Americans have a misplaced focus on Affirmative Action. If universities ceased factoring in racial and ethnic diversity in their admissions process, Asian-Americans would still be discriminated against. [Legacy admissions and other processes that favor the rich over the non-rich make this a given, as summed up in this article.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/23/elite-schools-ivy-league-legacy-admissions-harvard-wealthier-whiter) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=4)