# Baizuo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749 "2019-09-05T18:13:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/61 "2019-09-06T18:18:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think the college admissions is the precipitating factor but it is letting the conservative camel’s nose under the tent. We are seeing conservative asians saying 'we told you so, NOW will you listen to us?" They are leveraging this to build up opposition to affirmative action generally (something that asians have historically supported) by using the left’s own words about how racial justice for asians and affirmative action are mutually exclusive. They have a tough road ahead with Trump in office but Trump won’t always be in office. Hopefully if/when more liberals are aware of policies that harm Asians, more and more liberals will oppose these policies. There shouldn’t be any reason why AA necessarily has to harm Asians. EDIT: And as **ywtf** notes, problems with college admissions policies abound… and the biggest beneficiaries are rich white people. The biggest beneficiaries of any harm to Asians in college admissions are rich white folks. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/62 "2019-09-06T18:27:14Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > With that said, I agree entirely with you that the Rich-White-Sports candidates seem like a nice, plump target here. But there are political undercurrents to that (of course!) and there are other posters here on the SDMB who know an enormous amount about that topic. I don’t personally know what the best plan here would be. But I really don’t think it should be “nothing”. There’s a legitimate grievance here. An entire group of people is being forced to play the game with a much more stringent set of rules, based solely on their ethnicity, and they have every justification to be upset about that. Too many liberals think of stopping anti-asian discrimination in terms of being anti-affirmative action. In their minds they are making a choice between blacks/hispanics and asians and the obvious choice to them is blacks/hispanics. This is a false choice but it is interesting that when they felt they had to choose between being fair or showing favor to politically powerful racial groups, they chose the politically powerful racial groups. Of course things like legacy admissions and athletic preferences are bullshit. I think the lawsuit against harvard specifically lists the elimination of these things as ways to improve diversity. There is a magnet high school in Northern Virginia called Thomas Jefferson high school of science and technology (TJHSST). They have majority asian population and one of the more successful “crew” programs in the state. The kids on that team do not come from homes with traditions of rowing in crew but they adapted. The athletic preferences at ivy league colleges are overwhelmingly in sports that are not really accessible to immigrants and minorities. It is an avenue for perpetuating a continuity in the skin tone at some schools. As an interesting aside: The admission to TJHSST was largely determined by a score on a single exam. The school was predominantly white. Then the asians showed up and started taking more and more of the seats and before you knew it it was predominantly asian. THIS is when the county developed the political will to do something about the atrociously low black and hispanic population at the school. I’m not saying that the folks who pushed it were suddenly concerned about black and hispanic representation. I think it is more likely that the folks who were standing in their way suddenly lost interest in standing in their way. They added all sorts of subjective criteria in an effort to improve URM admissions and the school ended up admitting a whiter richer and dumber student body. It turns out that affluent white parents were better at navigating complicated admissions processes than asian immigrant parents. They reverted back to a mostly test based admissions process and have a primarily asian student body with little to no URM representation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/63 "2019-09-06T18:30:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [Well if there’s one thing we know as a fact, its that Bill de Blasio speaks for white people.](https://nypost.com/2019/08/06/bill-de-blasio-is-the-least-popular-politician-in-new-york-poll/) > > [Especially liberals.](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/) The term Baizuo does not refer to all liberal. It does not refer to mainstream liberals. The people using this term on the discussions about the SHSAT are mostly mainstream liberals. They are referring to the woke SJW crowd ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/64 "2019-09-06T18:33:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The term Baizuo does not refer to all liberal. It does not refer to mainstream liberals. The people using this term on the discussions about the SHSAT are mostly mainstream liberals. They are referring to the woke SJW crowd But is all opposition to the SHSAT crap, or is some of it entirely reasonable? Maybe broadening criteria could be beneficial for all minorities, including Asians. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/65 "2019-09-06T18:50:16Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > This is a source of serious rage. And understandably so. This is outright discrimination against a minority group, but my feeling here (perhaps wrong?) is that relatively few on the left care about it. I agree that this is issue worth caring about. But the reason that it’s been hard to elicit sympathy from a diverse swath of the population is because all too often this issue ends up pitting one minority against other minorities. Which is why Affirmative Action gets so much attention. The OP has a history of singling out “undeserving” black students to advance his argument about the unfairness of Asian discrimination. So here I am, a black woman who graduated with honors from one the hardest colleges in the country and is well acquainted with racist assumptions about merit etc.—and he’s not going to exactly inspire me to be an ally in his cause. All I see is someone who has let himself be manipulated by conservatives into thinking blacks and Latinos are the source of all pain and suffering, and I have little patience with this nonsense. If Asian-Americans want progressives to pick up this cause, they need to frame the problem in a way that doesn’t validate the racist scapegoating of conservatism. They have been beating their head against the wall because so many refuse to believe the truth: Asian discrimination doesn’t occur because blacks and Latinos benefit from Affirmative Action. It occurs because there is a lot more to admissions than just grades and SAT scores, and the powers-that-be want the freedom to cater to other powers-that-be. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/66 "2019-09-06T18:53:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You realize that affirmative action has to, by its intrinsic nature, discriminate? Yes. Of course. I think asian americans see some value in diversity and definitely see the value of restorative justice. It’s bad enough that the baizuo think its OK to have asian kids pay for 4 centuries of black oppression by white people. The evidence indicates that the current anti-asian system discriminates against asians in favor of white! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/67 "2019-09-06T19:05:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes. Of course. I think asian americans see some value in diversity and definitely see the value of restorative justice. > > It’s bad enough that the baizuo think its OK to have asian kids pay for 4 centuries of black oppression by white people. The evidence indicates that the current anti-asian system discriminates against asians in favor of white! it keeps coming down to Asians losing out to black people, doesn’t it? Don’t know how many times it needs to be pointed out that highly qualified Asians are losing out to less qualified students period (regardless of race), but your rhetoric keeps singling out the blacks. Do you have an easier envisioning an underserving black student than an underserving white one? Like, it totally fucks up your own appeal for anti-racism when you do this. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/68 "2019-09-06T19:13:56Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Is it possible that the US left does not see Asian-Americans as needing as much support as other minorities? They seem to be doing pretty well. They are indeed, but why are they discriminated against? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/69 "2019-09-06T19:15:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But is all opposition to the SHSAT crap, or is some of it entirely reasonable? Maybe broadening criteria could be beneficial for all minorities, including Asians. It’s mostly crap. If you think that the new system would have to be an improvement in identifying the best group of students rather than the mostly ethnically representative group of students then every proposal so far has been crap. There are 130 screened schools in NYC. 8 of them use the SHSAT as the sole criteria for admissions. They are mostly butthurt that the best of these are the ones that use a single test and the test does not yield a racially representative student body. The three most selective of these schools includes Brooklyn Tech. In the 1980, Brooklyn Tech was majority black. It is now about 7% black. Blaming the test for the lack of diversity is like blaming the MRI machine for your brain tumor. NYC DOE has been engaging in social experiment after social experiment, acting as the petri dish for the education departments of universities across the country and the result has been a race to the bottom. They recently proposed eliminating all gifted and talented programs, getting rid of tracking altogether. The policy proposals presented to date have all been proposals that sacrificed academic ability to achieve racial balance. The primary proposal was to admit the top 7% of every middle school. Some of these middle schools only had 2% of their students meeting grade level standards. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/70 "2019-09-06T19:22:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes, and my point is these Asian-Americans have a misplaced focus on Affirmative Action. If universities ceased factoring in racial and ethnic diversity in their admissions process, Asian-Americans would still be discriminated against. [Legacy admissions and other processes that favor the rich over the non-rich make this a given, as summed up in this article.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/23/elite-schools-ivy-league-legacy-admissions-harvard-wealthier-whiter) That’s the thing. YOU’RE the one that thinks this is about affirmative action. Asians think it’s about anti-asian discrimination. We saw how WHITE enrollment at top schools dropped after they went race blind in California. Percentagewise, it hurt the blacks more but in absolute numbers, asians were losing more seats to less qualified whites than less qualified blacks. Asians were not up in arms when they found out that they had to be more competitive than blacks to get into Harvard. that much has been clear for decades and we were cool with it. It was the new information that WHITE students were more likely to be admitted than asians that upset us. YOU’RE the ones that think that fighting anti-asian discrimination is an attack on affirmative action. We think its fighting anti-asian discrimination and if it reveals that some universities are hiding behind affirmative action to disguise their anti-asian discrimination well then shame on them, not us. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/71 "2019-09-06T19:26:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hopefully if/when more liberals are aware of policies that harm Asians, more and more liberals will oppose these policies. There shouldn’t be any reason why AA necessarily has to harm Asians. > > EDIT: And as **ywtf** notes, problems with college admissions policies abound… and the biggest beneficiaries are rich white people. The biggest beneficiaries of any harm to Asians in college admissions are rich white folks. Yes, the benficiaries are rich white folks but the baizuo act like fighting anti-asian discrimination is a direct attack on affirmative action (or at least a sneaky attack on affirmative action). I can cite dozens of articles written by whitesplaining baizuo that admonish asians for not sufficiently understanding racism and that what we are doing is playing into the hands of the white supremacists because fighting anti-asian discrimination is really an attack on affirmative action. It’s pretty galling ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/72 "2019-09-06T19:45:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I agree that this is issue worth caring about. But the reason that it’s been hard to elicit sympathy from a diverse swath of the population is because all too often this issue ends up pitting one minority against other minorities. Which is why Affirmative Action gets so much attention. Okay, I see what you’re saying now. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If Asian-Americans want progressives to pick up this cause, they need to frame the problem in a way that doesn’t validate the racist scapegoating of conservatism. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/73 "2019-09-06T19:53:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > it keeps coming down to Asians losing out to black people, doesn’t it? Don’t know how many times it needs to be pointed out that highly qualified Asians are losing out to less qualified students period (regardless of race), but your rhetoric keeps singling out the blacks. Do you have an easier envisioning an underserving black student than an underserving white one? Like, it totally fucks up your own appeal for anti-racism when you do this. I think you’re misreading it. Perhaps I can clarify. I said the baizuo think this. Not me. Take another look at the post. The baizuo think they are defending affirmative action for blacks and that is sufficient reason to throw asian kids under the bus. In their minds they are choosing between blacks and asians and they are choosing blacks over asians and scolding asians for complaining because they have a racial pecking order that they observe. I don’t think affirmative action is inconsistent with being fair to asians. I don’t think you can find a single post where I say that we should get rid of affirmative action. I spend significant time trying to convince the baizuo that fighting anti-asian discrimination is not an attack on affirmative action. I think what you may be remembering about me is my stance on how much culture has to do with the disparate outcomes between the asian and the black communities. I got into a heated argument with iiandyiiii about my use of the word "toxic’ - this may have been more incendiary than it needed to be. I understand that some people think that any criticism of anything black is racist but I think Ibram X Kendi is wrong that blacks that call for self reflection are a form of race traitor or that any criticism of black culture is a racist attack against blacks generally. There are certainly things about asian culture that can be criticized. Listen it’s easy for me to be upset by discrimination against a group to which I belong. Probably the same for you, but do you get upset when people discriminate against groups to which you don’t belong? Do you even recognize that there is discrimination going on? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/74 "2019-09-06T20:06:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > They have been beating their head against the wall because so many refuse to believe the truth: Asian discrimination doesn’t occur because blacks and Latinos benefit from Affirmative Action. It occurs because there is a lot more to admissions than just grades and SAT scores, and the powers-that-be want the freedom to cater to other powers-that-be. So the narrative that asians are suffering from affirmative action has actually not taken hold despite the efforts of conservatives because by and large most asians support affirmative action (certainly for american indians and the black descendants of slaves, we are a little skeptical of affirmative action for hispanics and black immigrants). Asians are more likely to vote Democrat than hispanics or Jews. Racism is not invisible to us. Asians mostly got upset about this stuff when we found out that white applicants were several times more likely to be admitted to these schools than asian applicants with similar credentials. I’m pretty sure that the whole affirmative action angle was injected by baizuo based on the fact that the guy bringing the suit obviously wants to get rid of affirmative action. But the lawsuit is directed at anti-asian discrimination. Do you know how many times affirmative action is mentioned (negatively) in the brief? At oral argument? The lawsuit acknowledges the schools right to promote diversity but says it can be achieved in ways that do not discriminate against asians. It talks about eliminating legacy, eliminating athletic preferences, outreach programs, etc. This connection to AA is there but it is not a direct attack on AA. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/75 "2019-09-06T20:55:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The term Baizuo does not refer to all liberal. It does not refer to mainstream liberals. The people using this term on the discussions about the SHSAT are mostly mainstream liberals. They are referring to the woke SJW crowd But - I’m a woke SJW and I oppose anti-Asian discrimination in college admission processes. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/76 "2019-09-06T22:12:58Z")
Nvm ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/77 "2019-09-06T22:56:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But - I’m a woke SJW and I oppose anti-Asian discrimination in college admission processes. …I too am a woke SJW and I approve this message. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/78 "2019-09-06T23:19:16Z")
I guess baizuo means strawman. Sometimes too much foreplay backfires. The OP should just get to his point. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/79 "2019-09-06T23:41:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think you’re misreading it. Perhaps I can clarify. I said the baizuo think this. Not me. Take another look at the post. And the very fact that this thread is about “baizuo” means I’m reading things 100% correctly. You make clear in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21843764&postcount=10) post your own racial biases when you posted: > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > They have created this narrative that places the blame for the lack of “success” of blacks and hispanics at the feet of white supremacy. Any suggestion that perhaps blacks and hispanics could be doing more to improve their situation is condemned as being somewhere between victim blaming to outright racism. You don’t win progressive allies when it’s clear you’ve been blindly imbibing racist conservative kool-aide. I’m just keeping it real with you. “Baizuo” sounds like a boogeyman cooked up by right-wing disinformers. What are we supposed to do with this shit except laugh at it? When you promulgate racism against blacks and Latinos and vilify so-called “SJW” whites, not only do you play into the hands of rich conservative whites that have a vested interest in pitting minorities against each other, but you also alienate yourself from potential allies. The same dynamic keeps poor conservative whites in self-sabotage mode too. Economically depressed whites focus their ire on minorities, immigrants, and”college educated “coastal elites”, rather than capitalists that exploit them. This misplaced ire keeps them from building the coalitions needed to get the reforms that would help them. They fall for the okeydoke time and time again, just as capitalists need them too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/80 "2019-09-06T23:50:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The term Baizuo does not refer to all liberal. It does not refer to mainstream liberals. The people using this term on the discussions about the SHSAT are mostly mainstream liberals. They are referring to the woke SJW crowd Of course baizuo doesn’t refer to white people who know their place. Racist terms rarely do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=5)