# Baizuo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749 "2019-09-05T18:13:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/141 "2019-09-08T14:50:47Z")
Mr. Dibble: > [@](#): > > Hispanics have been in the US longer than WASPs… You mean like the descendants of the original Spanish colonists in New Mexico, Arizona and California? They don’t consider themselves to be Hispanic (they prefer to be called “Hispanos”) and don’t vote like what’s more commonly considered the “Hispanic” community in America - fourth-or-fewer-generation immigrants primarily from Mexico, Puerto Rico (technically not immigrants, but you know what I mean), the Dominican Republic and Cuba. Logically, the argument about immigrant self-selection that was put forth in the quote I had responded about should apply as much to these groups as to Asian-Americans, but it does not seem to yield the same result. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/142 "2019-09-08T14:53:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The problem with implementing affirmative action in something like competitive sports is that it’s a uniquely unforgiving environment for those who aren’t cut out for the role. Whatever the reason may be for Asians not being represented well in the NBA - be it their lack of interest in pursuing a roster spot, or lack of physical practice in it, or whatever - forcing teams to have Asian players whether the teams want it or not would be an utter embarrassment on the court. You would end up with Asian players being absolutely drubbed and humiliated on the court because they weren’t truly cut out for it. Jeremy Lin got into the NBA because 1) he had the physical goods and 2) he was psychologically motivated enough to make it happen. > > If you want affirmative action in academic admissions or the corporate boardroom or something like that, the damage that can be caused is better shielded and less visible. But doing it in a professional sport, in front of a TV audience of millions, would be absolutely cringeworthy. FYI - Like most people from the West, my perception of Asians was that they are generally much shorter and smaller than the average Western man. This is due to the fact that most immigrants come from the southern region of China. Just as one might generalize that Italians are smaller compared to the Dutch. There are areas in China and Asia where the people are much taller. Professional Chinese basketball teams can field rosters with the same size as any NBA team. Not the same talent level but certainly the same size. There are 900 roster spots in the NBA when you include the developmental league. Are you saying there is not one spot that could be given to an Asian if only to develop that player as project? As a general rule, most teams play at most 10 of their 15 man roster. Jeremy Lin was one of those player who rarely got to play. When he did play, it was cringeworthy. When he got a chance to show what he could do, it was one of the greatest sports stories ever: Linsanity. Somehow you think affirmative action is fine in occupations where the stakes are life and death such as a policeman or surgeon, but is unacceptable in a sporting event ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/143 "2019-09-08T15:31:18Z")
It seems odd to me to focus on elite university admission rates when the evidence is consistent across a variety of other fields. We can argue about whether one, or two, or a dozen specific universities have practice that harms Asians, but the data is quite clear that discriminatory practices that harms Asians is prevalent across a much wider and larger scale. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/144 "2019-09-09T06:40:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What other one? I am only aware of Blum’s Blum’s lawsuit and the lawsuit by a coalition of Asian-American students are [not the same thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_federal_complaints_against_Harvard_University%27s_alleged_discriminatory_admission_practices#Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._Harvard). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/145 "2019-09-09T06:46:52Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Mr. Dibble: > > You mean like the descendants of the original Spanish colonists in New Mexico, Arizona and California? They don’t consider themselves to be Hispanic (they prefer to be called “Hispanos”) Do _demographers_ consider them Hispanic, though? As to the immigrant self-selection argument, I think you’ll find that the majority of those immigrants are not self-selecting in the same sense as, say, Chinese immigrants. They are, I would say, more circumstance-driven immigrants. A closer analogue on the Asian side would be e.g. [Hmong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_Americans#Community_and_social_issues) and [Bengali](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladeshi_Americans#Community_and_economic_issues) immigrants. Basically, the Asian “model minority” idea breaks down rapidly when you look at individual ethnicities. Then it’s all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/146 "2019-09-09T16:18:47Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > PSAT recruitment has very little to do with who is actually admitted. I mean, yes, I would love to hear the exact conversation that lead to THAT decision, and I’m very open to the possibility that it was entirely bigoted in intent, but, again, recruitment is like a totally different thing than admissions. PSAT recruitment is about building brand awareness and harvesting mass applications to keep acceptance rates low. Would this level of evidence convince you that Jews were being discriminated against? URMs? How much evidence before the knee jerks in favor of asians? > [@](#): > > But if their marketing research showed that once an URM % got over X%, “development” applications began to decline, you bet your ass they wouldn’t cross that threshold. Once again, this seems like a good argument for rescinding their tax exempt status. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/147 "2019-09-09T16:25:36Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > This is the same Espenshade who says his data do not prove that Asians are being discriminated against in college admissions. Specifically because he does not have access to all the application data that factor into selections. Yes. He concludes that “The book concluded that Asian American applicants to United States colleges were much more likely to be rejected by seven elite colleges than were similar members of any other race” but he can’t prove its racism because the schools will not share their admissions data. Since then Harvard has had to share some of its admissions data and the things that he said he didn’t have access to are now a little more available. And here’s what we have discovered: Harvard admissions committees routinely score asian applicants lower on personal scores than whites despite the fact that alumni interviewers do not have a similar disparity in personal scores. Harvard has a higher cut off to send recruitment material to asians than to whites. So how exactly do you explain how the asian population has stayed flat for decades despite an ever increasing asian population? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/148 "2019-09-09T16:31:46Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s a poor proxy. A kid whose parents went to Harvard and Yale and who went to Phillips Andover is going to be a lot more likely to get in that a kid who went to a local “great” private school that’s only 100 years old and whose parents went to state schools–even if household incomes are similar. > > The feeder school bump is [real](https://www.thestreet.com/story/13325695/1/top-us-private-schools-with-the-most-graduates-getting-into-ivy-league-universities.html). It’s expected that 30% or more of each class will be accepted by an Ivy League school (no one is tracking admittance to other highly selectives, but I imagine it tracks). The party line is just that since they are great schools, they have great kids and it’s all a perfect meritocracy, but I’ve spoken to admissions officers who will tell you differently. The presence of these kids significantly distorts the perception of how easy it is for white kids to get into highly selectives. I agree that there are a bunch of factors that weigh in the white applicant’s favor. The study corrected for legacy, athletics, extracurriculars. If you are basically saying that the 4 fold advantage that white students hold over asian students is primarily due to the number of white students coming from feeder schools, I’d have to ask for a cite that shows how white Andover graduates have higher acceptance rates than asians with similar scores, extracurriculars, athletic prferences and legacy status. My understanding was that Andover was a feeder school because so many of the kids there are legacies, engage in inaccessible sports like crew and sailing, and are screened by the Andover admission process. I didn’t think you got an extra 400% bump because you went to Andover. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/149 "2019-09-09T16:32:46Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You haven’t given us anything concrete to dismiss. > > But as for unquantifiable factors, an applicant’s poor critical thinking skills, inability to cite data, or tendency to rely on straw men might be reflected in his or her essay or in teacher recommendations. That would certainly outweigh something unimportant like SAT scores. > > Other factors: > Demonstrated leadership > Demonstrated ability to overcome adversity and persist through challenges > The school wants a bassoonist And you think that white applicants have this attribute 400% more frequently than asian applicants? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/150 "2019-09-09T16:34:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s even more complicated than that… It’s also quite possible that implicit bias on the part of teachers (most of whom are white) plays up the accomplishments of white students and discounts similar accomplishments on the part of Asian students–which is reflected in letters (and, as or more importantly, in counselor’s assessments. Counselor assessments carry a lot of weight and counselors spend less time with students). > > Look, it’s a dirty, imperfect, messy problem. And well, the bread always lands buttered side down for asians but it’s a messy process so what can you do? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/151 "2019-09-09T16:40:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It seems odd to me to focus on elite university admission rates when the evidence is consistent across a variety of other fields. We can argue about whether one, or two, or a dozen specific universities have practice that harms Asians, but the data is quite clear that discriminatory practices that harms Asians is prevalent across a much wider and larger scale. It’s a hot button issue for asians. It’s not like we don’t know that there is racism elsewhere. We see it at every level above middle management in corporate america. We see it when professors are granted tenure, we see it on dating apps and pornography, we see it in how teachers treat our kids. But a lot of asians sort of grit their teeth and grind through it because they think that their kids can get into a good college and have a better life. So when you start to take away their dream of a better life for their kids, it really bugs them. I have never seen asians more politically active and motivated than they are now. And they are starting to move away from the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/152 "2019-09-09T16:45:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have never seen asians more politically active and motivated than they are now. And they are starting to move away from the Democrats. Is there data that supports this? And where are they going? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/153 "2019-09-09T17:14:07Z")
Maybe it’s toxic Asian culture? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/154 "2019-09-09T17:37:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And they are starting to move away from the Democrats. Good news for the Greens. Because they’d have to be fucking insane to swing to the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/155 "2019-09-09T19:03:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is there data that supports this? And where are they going? Data? [yes](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/13/18308137/asian-american-voters-immigration-democrats-donald-trump). To support that proposition? You decide: > [@](#): > > In the 2014 midterm elections, 49 percent of Asian American voters backed a Democratic House candidate, according to exit polls. But in 2018, that number shot up to 77 percent. > > It was a massive surge — and it’s a trend that’s been building for some time: As the Republican Party has moved to the right, especially on issues like immigration, Asian American voters are increasingly aligning themselves with Democrats. Since 2016, Trump’s presidency has only amplified this shift, with the White House’s focus on anti-immigrant policy putting voters off even more. The silver lining is, I’m increasingly understanding why DA doesn’t provide cites. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/156 "2019-09-09T23:23:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Good news for the Greens. Because they’d have to be fucking insane to swing to the Republicans. Minorities leaving the Democratic plantation will only benefit them in the long term. Knowingly having a captive demographic means that they can be taken for granted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/157 "2019-09-09T23:26:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Minorities leaving the Democratic plantation will only benefit them in the long term. Knowingly having a captive demographic means that they can be taken for granted. God what an offensive and ignorant phrase that is. Do you know what plantations were really like? It’s like calling the Republican party the “Republican death camp”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/158 "2019-09-10T05:01:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Minorities leaving the Democratic plantation will only benefit them in the long term. Is dey leabin’ de “plantation” to be Republican House Asians, Massah? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/159 "2019-09-10T10:41:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes. He concludes that “The book concluded that Asian American applicants to United States colleges were much more likely to be rejected by seven elite colleges than were similar members of any other race” but he can’t prove its racism because the schools will not share their admissions data. > > Since then Harvard has had to share some of its admissions data and the things that he said he didn’t have access to are now a little more available. And here’s what we have discovered: > > Harvard admissions committees routinely score asian applicants lower on personal scores than whites despite the fact that alumni interviewers do not have a similar disparity in personal scores. > > Harvard has a higher cut off to send recruitment material to asians than to whites. > > So how exactly do you explain how the asian population has stayed flat for decades despite an ever increasing asian population? I don’t need to explain it; that’s what you’ve failed to do thus far. Again, you’ve offered us nothing concrete to dismiss. To support an anti-Asian bias, you referenced an author who doesn’t think his data establish an anti-Asian bias. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/160 "2019-09-10T10:42:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you think that white applicants have this attribute 400% more frequently than asian applicants? They don’t need to. Your 400% is unsupported. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=9)