# Baizuo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749 "2019-09-05T18:13:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/161 "2019-09-10T11:25:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree that there are a bunch of factors that weigh in the white applicant’s favor. The study corrected for legacy, athletics, extracurriculars. If you are basically saying that the 4 fold advantage that white students hold over asian students is primarily due to the number of white students coming from feeder schools, I’d have to ask for a cite that shows how white Andover graduates have higher acceptance rates than asians with similar scores, extracurriculars, athletic prferences and legacy status. > > My understanding was that Andover was a feeder school because so many of the kids there are legacies, engage in inaccessible sports like crew and sailing, and are screened by the Andover admission process. I didn’t think you got an extra 400% bump because you went to Andover. You’re assuming feeder schools are equally open to Asian applicants. It’s not just Andover. There’s a couple dozen or more. They have insanely high acceptance rates at top colleges. Yes, there’s a lot of overlap with other things, like legacy and sports, but lots of “great” public schools have crew teams too–and they don’t send 35% of their class to HYPSM. You are vastly underestimating how corrupt and unfair this system is. I don’t have a cite. I have the same evidence you do for what “Asians” are saying about these things. You’re involved in that community. This is my community. The relationships between some of the feeder schools and the highly selective colleges are, in some cases, older than this country. It’s like lobbyists and bureaucrats–being an admissions officer is a young person’s game. The goal is to go from there to being a private counselor at one of these schools. Your relationship with the people you leave behind are your dowry. Also, to be really clear, the Feeder School kids absolutely have the stats, the achievements, the personal qualities it takes to get into the schools they go to. But so do, say, the strongest 10 kids at the top 300 public schools in the country, and the strongest 1 or 2 kids at the top 500 public schools in the country. But take that pool of 3000 kids and compare it to the 3000 graduating in the top half of feeder schools, and there will be no comparison about who gets into the highly selective Universities. Legacy and sports helps–but it’s not just that. I will tell you that an Upper Middle Class Nice White Kid with wonderful but generic accomplishments is a drag on the market. In my pretty extensive experience, they are exactly as hard to place in the highly selectives as an Asian kid with similar stats. In both cases, it’s nearly impossible. It’s in the range that you could have a 400% difference that was basically meaningless, because 1/10,000 and 4/10,000 pretty much is the same for the individual. As far as PSAT recruiting, I’m comfortable saying that’s bullshit and racist, but I don’t think it has anything to do with who they want at their school: it’s harvesting applications. It may be they just think Asian kids with a 1350 on the PSAT are savvy enough to know there’s no point in applying to Harvard. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/162 "2019-10-01T20:47:46Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > They don’t need to. Your 400% is unsupported. Of course its supported. I’ve cited a ton of evidence. What you seem to be asking for is incontrovertible proof. If I had this level of evidence supporting the idea that there was racism against any other minority, would you still be asking for proof? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/163 "2019-10-01T20:55:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You’re assuming feeder schools are equally open to Asian applicants. > > It’s not just Andover. There’s a couple dozen or more. They have insanely high acceptance rates at top colleges. Yes, there’s a lot of overlap with other things, like legacy and sports, but lots of “great” public schools have crew teams too–and they don’t send 35% of their class to HYPSM. You are vastly underestimating how corrupt and unfair this system is. > > I don’t have a cite. I have the same evidence you do for what “Asians” are saying about these things. You’re involved in that community. This is my community. The relationships between some of the feeder schools and the highly selective colleges are, in some cases, older than this country. It’s like lobbyists and bureaucrats–being an admissions officer is a young person’s game. The goal is to go from there to being a private counselor at one of these schools. Your relationship with the people you leave behind are your dowry. > > Also, to be really clear, the Feeder School kids absolutely have the stats, the achievements, the personal qualities it takes to get into the schools they go to. But so do, say, the strongest 10 kids at the top 300 public schools in the country, and the strongest 1 or 2 kids at the top 500 public schools in the country. But take that pool of 3000 kids and compare it to the 3000 graduating in the top half of feeder schools, and there will be no comparison about who gets into the highly selective Universities. Legacy and sports helps–but it’s not just that. > > I will tell you that an Upper Middle Class Nice White Kid with wonderful but generic accomplishments is a drag on the market. In my pretty extensive experience, they are exactly as hard to place in the highly selectives as an Asian kid with similar stats. In both cases, it’s nearly impossible. It’s in the range that you could have a 400% difference that was basically meaningless, because 1/10,000 and 4/10,000 pretty much is the same for the individual. > > As far as PSAT recruiting, I’m comfortable saying that’s bullshit and racist, but I don’t think it has anything to do with who they want at their school: it’s harvesting applications. It may be they just think Asian kids with a 1350 on the PSAT are savvy enough to know there’s no point in applying to Harvard. Right, because all the racist bullshit that Harvard is doing doesnt really mean that Harvard is racist. I went to one of Harvard’s feeder schools and there was an apparent racial tilt among applicants at the feeder school. And isnt controlling for legacies is not a reasonable proxy for controlling for feeder schools? I mean other than stuyvesant all the feeder schools are chock full of legacies ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/164 "2019-10-01T20:56:43Z")
Trial court finds for Harvard. Will be appealed. > **[Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process](https://www.npr.org/2019/10/01/730386096/federal-judge-rules-in-favor-of-harvard-in-admissions-case)** > > The advocacy group Students for Fair Admissions says it will appeal the decision, which means the fate of race-conscious admissions could once again end up in the hands of the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/165 "2019-10-02T16:22:20Z")
The American Jewish community has had the right of this for decades: as soon as some racism is okay, all racism is okay. [That train is never late](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poqoClsEhR4). Currently, this primarily manifests in liberal support for the rights of Muslims, but it could be Hispanics or non-Muslim Asians or Inuit or American Indians or anyone. Are Asians a “disadvantaged” minority in the US? As a group, no. But Asians aren’t a group. Chinese and Indian immigrants have done well. Cambodians and Phillippinos haven’t. Either way, Asians pulling support from the Democratic Party is suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/166 "2019-10-02T18:22:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Of course its supported. I’ve cited a ton of evidence. Lol, “a ton”, you say. That’s verifiable. Let’s see. . . You’ve posted some 50 times to this thread. Post #88 has two citations, neither of which address your 400%. That’s about it. You do obliquely reference a study by Espenshade that I already busted you on. So, no, it’s not supported, and no, you haven’t cited a ton of evidence; you’ve hardly cited anything at all despite 50 posts. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What you seem to be asking for is incontrovertible proof. I expect what I expected from the Ivy League students I taught – actual arguments (i.e. not ending in question marks) supported by evidence. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If I had this level of evidence supporting the idea that there was racism against any other minority, would you still be asking for proof? You’re welcome to attempt an argument one way or another; I’m certainly not going to do your work for you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/167 "2019-10-04T14:34:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The American Jewish community has had the right of this for decades: as soon as some racism is okay, all racism is okay. Asians are just now learning this. Shame on us. > [@](#): > > Either way, Asians pulling support from the Democratic Party is suicide. The support isn’t going to shift while Trump is in office but he won’t always be in office. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/168 "2019-10-04T15:48:15Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You do obliquely reference a study by Espenshade that I already busted you on. Busted me on? The author said that his study wasn’t a smoking gun. That’s not busting me on it. That’s pettifoggery. We don’t have a smoking gun that smoking causes cancer (or at least we didn’t when society at large became convinced that smoking caused cancer), all we have is the same sort of statistical evidence that there is anti-Asian discrimination. > [@](#): > > I expect what I expected from the Ivy League students I taught – actual arguments (i.e. not ending in question marks) supported by evidence. The argument in a nutshell is that there is overwhelming statistical evidence that Asians are statistically less likely to be admitted to selective colleges than similar applicants of other races. This is hard to explain unless there is a bias against Asians in the admissions process. > [@](#): > > You’re welcome to attempt an argument one way or another; I’m certainly not going to do your work for you. How would you explain the statistical discrepancy? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749/169 "2019-10-04T15:59:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And isnt controlling for legacies is not a reasonable proxy for controlling for feeder schools? I mean other than stuyvesant all the feeder schools are chock full of legacies I don’t think that it is. Lots of kids at Feeder schools don’t target the school they have Legacy status at. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baizuo/839749.md?page=8)