# Balance...Syrian war verse US invasion of Iraq
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 4, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649 "2016-10-04T19:34:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/61 "2016-10-13T02:33:34Z")
> [@Ramira](#):
>
> A ‘defensive war’? It is a funny idea that the Syrian government is defensive when it is the Syrian dictatorship that began firing the live ammunition on the peaceful protests in 2011.
> the assad government is a dictatorship that began a nasty civil war by firing on the civilian unarmed protestors, and it is the assad government that has committed the most ferocious and most numerous of the war crimes in deliberate attacks on civilians as part of its terror campaign.
>
> There is no thing legitimate about that government, and it is deranged anti americanism to call the US involvement ‘illegal’
>
> In the real world outside of the very strange imaginings of the american liberarians, the record is very clear that it is when governments as the primary actors that the cease fires actually work and hold. When it is the self organized - in other words the armed gangs called militias - then the cease fires tend not to.
> the involvement of government as the structured organized governance is a positive.
The likely president in a few months wants a no-fly zone, which the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has said would “require” a war with Russia. Russia and Syria know about Clinton’s plan, and they have an interest in making as much progress in the war until Clinton assumes power. If they make significant progress, it will be more difficult politically for Clinton to make her drunkenly belligerent moves. Because of this, there will be no ceasefire as long as the likely victor is Clinton. If less governments were involved, for example the US govt, the likelihood of a cease fire would increase.
The civil war was not started because of the protests, that’s an intensely naive version of reality. In any case, the Syrian government is indeed attempting to defend its territorial monopoly. A civil war is characterized by a faction or factions attempting to gain control of the state apparatus. Assad defends the state apparatus from the various factions. It’s not a tough concept.
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/62 "2016-10-14T10:20:07Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> The civil war was not started because of the protests, that’s an intensely naive version of reality.
It seems “intensely naive” means "based on the actual facts. The civil war stemmed directly from the initial peaceful mass protests starting in the March 2011 and the decision of the Assad regime to immediately use live ammunition against protestors and active its death squads to disappear and to assasinate. The actual war aspect began when certain of the army and police units mutinied against orders to fire on protestors and defected individually and then en masse as units by approximately the June 2011.
> [@](#):
>
> In any case, the Syrian government is indeed attempting to defend its territorial monopoly. A civil war is characterized by a faction or factions attempting to gain control of the state apparatus. Assad defends the state apparatus from the various factions. It’s not a tough concept.
That is indeed one form of civil war. What this strange definitional recitation has to do with anything I do not know.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/63 "2016-10-14T10:28:08Z")
> [@Ramira](#):
>
> It seems “intensely naive” means "based on the actual facts. The civil war stemmed directly from the initial peaceful mass protests starting in the March 2011 and the decision of the Assad regime to immediately use live ammunition against protestors and active its death squads to disappear and to assasinate. The actual war aspect began when certain of the army and police units mutinied against orders to fire on protestors and defected individually and then en masse as units by approximately the June 2011.
>
> That is indeed one form of civil war. What this strange definitional recitation has to do with anything I do not know.
Doesn’t surprise me.
I described the Syrian conflict as a defensive war. You put “defensive war” in quotes and claimed it was a “funny idea”. I then further explained the nature of the civil war and why it should be considered a defensive war. Are you caught up now?
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/64 "2016-10-14T11:16:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> Doesn’t surprise me.
>
> I described the Syrian conflict as a defensive war. You put “defensive war” in quotes and claimed it was a “funny idea”. I then further explained the nature of the civil war and why it should be considered a defensive war. Are you caught up now?
Of course I did.
It is not a “defensive war” it is a war that the regime itself launched proactively and created itself. It is the picture of offensive, as it was not the protestors that launched armed and army organized attacks, it was the regime. When it is that actor that has launched the process, it is not ‘defensive’ - any more than the Nazi attack on the Soviet Union was ‘defensive’
Your bizarre american fringe ideology seems to make it impossible not only for you to understand the economics, but also any politics.
There is no “catch up” at all, it is just to be noted the eccentric and fringe political framing you put on subjects and thus the eccentric view.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/65 "2016-10-14T11:26:01Z")
> [@Ramira](#):
>
> Of course I did.
>
> It is not a “defensive war” it is a war that the regime itself launched proactively and created itself. It is the picture of offensive, as it was not the protestors that launched armed and army organized attacks, it was the regime. When it is that actor that has launched the process, it is not ‘defensive’ - any more than the Nazi attack on the Soviet Union was ‘defensive’
>
> Your bizarre american fringe ideology seems to make it impossible not only for you to understand the economics, but also any politics.
>
> There is no “catch up” at all, it is just to be noted the eccentric and fringe political framing you put on subjects and thus the eccentric view.
Is Assad defending his government from the various factions?
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/66 "2016-10-14T11:27:51Z")
Eccentric, fringe, ideology, american, bizarre! Boodedy boogedy boogedy!
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/67 "2016-10-14T11:36:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> Is Assad defending his government from the various factions?
In the same fashion Hitler was **defending** his pure aryans from the Jews and the Bolsheviks.
Your fun-house mirror defense is boring.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/68 "2016-10-14T12:01:03Z")
Wow. Your stale, statist, elitist, continental ideology produces some interesting hyperbole.
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### Author:  [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/69 "2016-10-14T13:02:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> Is Assad defending his government from the various factions?
Isn’t this an oversimplification? Can’t the various factions just as easily say “We are defending ourselves form the Assad regime because this regime has a history of violent suppression of protests, it has rolled the tanks into the streets, and snipers killed many of the peaceful protesters”?
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> The civil war was not started because of the protests, that’s an intensely naive version of reality.
Then explain to naive, ignorant people like myself why the civil war actually started. You never actually addressed that criticism by **Ramira**. Provide citations for all your assertions because I like to do my own independent reading.
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/70 "2016-10-14T13:30:39Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#):
>
> Isn’t this an oversimplification? Can’t the various factions just as easily say “We are defending ourselves form the Assad regime because this regime has a history of violent suppression of protests, it has rolled the tanks into the streets, and snipers killed many of the peaceful protesters”?
It is really very simple - the aggressor is that party that first resorted to violence and actual warfare. There is no doubt at all that it was the Assad regime.
It is a fun house mirror to call an aggressive use of lethal force against peaceful protestors (over many months and many repetitions) as defensive.
It did not go the way they thought and indeed they are now on the defensive, but in the same way the Nazis were on the defensive in the second world war, it was still a war of aggression.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/71 "2016-10-14T15:34:33Z")
> [@Ramira](#):
>
> It is really very simple - the aggressor is that party that first resorted to violence and actual warfare. There is no doubt at all that it was the Assad regime.
>
> It is a fun house mirror to call an aggressive use of lethal force against peaceful protestors (over many months and many repetitions) as defensive.
>
> It did not go the way they thought and indeed they are now on the defensive, but in the same way the Nazis were on the defensive in the second world war, it was still a war of aggression.
Is the Syrian government on the defensive from citizens stifled by protest or from factions other than those peaceful protestors?
I didn’t call the tactics used by Assad to stifle protests defensive. I called the war that has been ongoing for several years defensive. Please keep up.
North Korea stifles dissent harshly, if they were invaded by the US govt they would be fighting a defensive war.
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/72 "2016-10-14T15:45:22Z")
So the fun house mirror again
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> I didn’t call the tactics used by Assad to stifle protests defensive. I called the war that has been ongoing for several years defensive. Please keep up.
We are keeping up fine, no matter the efforts to make obfuscation.
The war by the Syrian government on its population is one it kicked off, it launched the offensive war
[quoteNorth Korea stifles dissent harshly, if they were invaded by the US govt they would be fighting a defensive war.[/QUOTE]
Yes they would, but if they attacked their own population, then they are fighting the offensive war against their own population.
As is Syria.
Your strange and badly framed analogies awaited
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### Author:  [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/73 "2016-10-14T15:45:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> Is the Syrian government on the defensive from citizens stifled by protest or from factions other than those peaceful protestors?
>
> I didn’t call the tactics used by Assad to stifle protests defensive. I called the war that has been ongoing for several years defensive. Please keep up.
>
> North Korea stifles dissent harshly, if they were invaded by the US govt they would be fighting a defensive war.
I need to check - at this point, do you know what you’re talking about?
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/74 "2016-10-14T17:19:33Z")
The factions fighting Assad are mostly foreigners, backed by foreign governments. Even Clinton acknowledged this in recent leaked emails. It’s like I’m dropping a nugget of wisdom on you each time I lap you.
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/75 "2016-10-14T18:16:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> The factions fighting Assad are mostly foreigners, backed by foreign governments. Even Clinton acknowledged this in recent leaked emails. It’s like I’m dropping a nugget of wisdom on you each time I lap you.
Your nuggets of wisdom are complete fabrications.
The assertion that the factions fighting the Assad regime, now but particularly at the start are mostly foreigners is completely false (and logistically of course an impossibility).
Evidently you have confused some things you have read about the DAESH (which the Assad regime ignores mostly) with the larger combats in the populated west.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/balance-syrian-war-verse-us-invasion-of-iraq/767649/76 "2016-10-14T19:30:42Z")
In fact, most of the effective forces backing Assad are foreigners - Iranians, Hezbollah and other Iranian-supported militias. The actual Syrian military hasn’t been in charge for some time now.
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