# Bali bomber thanks anti-war protesters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073 "2003-08-27T21:39:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/121 "2003-08-28T04:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > Thanks for the full cite, **DMC**. From TurdNetDaily ? I believe **DMC** ’s breaking wind in your general direction Elvis. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/122 "2003-08-28T05:05:38Z")
It’s late. Gimme a break. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/123 "2003-08-28T05:29:00Z")
Y’almost have to wonder if this guy deliberately said this to give folks an excuse to label half the population as “traitors” and provide ammunition to efforts to curtail civil liberties, if not officially then at least by peer pressure… OTOH, I don’t expect he’s smart enough to think of it. But it’s depressing to know that that’s probably gonna be the result anyway… OTOOH, the “you’re against our government, ergo you are a traitor” phenomenon isn’t exactly new, and it wouldn’t have gone away even if this clown had kept his yap shut. Ah, well, such is life… ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/124 "2003-08-28T05:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Was the Bali bombing before or after the anti-war protests? \*\* Holy Fuck… I mean to say… HOLY HOLY FUCK! Fellow Dopers - please be aware - this is one highly enraged Australian citizen checking in here. Firstly, **TwistofFate** - the Bali Bombing was late October 2002. It was way, way, WAY before even the slightest movements were made by the US Administration to start planning for a military campaign. Months before. The majority of street protests against Australia’s involvement in the Iraq War took place in March and April of 2003 - some 6 months after the Bali Bombing. Now, no offence personally to you **TwistofFate** but let me share with you a personal little story about Bali. My dearest lovliest friends whom I’ve known for some 15 years now - well their lovely, healthy, athletic 18 year old son was away in Bali on an “end of season” football trip with his local football team. It was his first time overseas - and he was trapped in the rear of the Sari Club and couldn’t get out as the building collapsed and burnt around him. The poor bastard died of his wounds two days later - along with 88 innocent Australians and about another 40 foreigners who were guilty of nothing - other than being perceived as “heathen foreigners on an island which really should be Islamic and not Hindu”. Another 80 locals were killed too - with at least 400 critically wounded people. The Bali Bombing is real personal to me - real personal - and one of the single most offensive things about (some of) you Americans is that you feel obliged to ask such epicly dumb fuck questions - like when was the Bali Bombing? It’s so incredibly offensive because what it says is that unless Americans are involved - you basically don’t give a fuck - and yet every day, we in the rest of the world, get every single minutae of braindead shitful trivia coming OUT of the USA pumped down our throats as though it’s some sort of medicine we can’t live without. But that being said - **TwistofFate** - you’re off the hook now. I recognise that some of you Americans are inherently insular and there’s only so far I can get pissed off about that. However, now, with the board’s permission - I am going to let **december** cop it. **december** - you lousy, insignificant retarded bag of shit? How dare you? How dare you hi-jack a tragedy as painful and nationwide as the Bali Bombing was to us Australians just so that you can (yet again) launch another one of your pitiful, mind-bogglingly disingenuous partisan politics threads which are totally meaningless outside of the USA? You lousy, gutless, piece of shit. My friends who lost their son would gladly cut your eyes out for this thread, and how dishonest it is, and the fact that you so gleefully created it. Here’s the facts - prior to October 2002 - there were ZERO protests of any sort within Australia regarding our alliance with the United States, or regarding the decision by our government to send troops to aid the USA in the Afghanistan campaign. Perhaps there was the odd newspaper editorial but that was it. The Bali Bombing was totally, without question, a cunt act of the highest order designed to kill as many foreigners as possible because the Islamic Extremists of Indonesia are really hateful towards the “Hindu” island of Bali. There were no anti Bush protests in Australia prior to the Bali Bombing. **december** - the man on trial at the moment is a cunt - a brainwashed idealogue who only cares about one thing before he faces the shooting squad - namely, to fuck with you Americans in the head as much as possible by saying things to taunt you. But be aware of something - you have wilfully presented this thread - against all the evidence of history and the facts - as though the Iraq anti-war protests of April this year actually took place prior to October last year and therein inspired the Bali Bombing. You cunt, I say… you total utter cunt. I am heartily sick of you creating threads on any subject - no matter what it is - and then somehow equating that subject to have some sort of relavence to internal US partisan politics. Well not this time you sack of lying shit. My dearest friends lost their 18 year old boy last October and his memory will not be used by you to get you pathetic jollys on some messageboard on the other side of the globe. May you get banned ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![ooga\_booga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b77776/32.png) [@ooga\_booga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ooga_booga)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/125 "2003-08-28T05:45:23Z")
I don’t think I’ve ever seen **december** more eloquently, thoroughly, or deservingly put in his place. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/126 "2003-08-28T06:15:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*WEIRDDAVE – > > One more time, with feeling: _People are not responsible for how their peaceful actions SEEM to terrorists!_ If I am acting lawfully and peacefully and civilly, and some individual wholly unrelated to me or my cause takes my actions as motivation to do something violent, that is _not my problem_. And I sure as HELL didn’t cause his actions. They are not the “consequence” of my action; they are the consequence of his own fully volitional, independent actions. Jodi, I’m suprised at you. You’re one of the posters whom I respect, mainly because you usualy read what people post and respond to what they say, not what you want them to say. In that vein, I have a few questions: Please quote where I have said people are responsible for their actions may seem to others. I have not, I’ve simply said that people should be aware of it. Please quote where I have claimed that the actions of anti-war protestors have _caused_ terrorists attacks, because I have not said that. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > That is not a _consequence_ of the protest! It is a consequence of their own volitional acts bringing about a perceived positive result, which in turn prompts them to repeat the same catalystic action to achieve the same positive result. If I hit a red button repeatedly because every time I do so it pays off with a cookie, the cookie is not _causing_ me to hit the red button; I am _choosing_ to do so because I want the cookies. > > Besides which, you’ve mixed up cause and effect. In your examples, the _cause_ is the act of terror; the hoped-for _result_ is greater protest. In the ridiculous position advocated in the OP it’s the other way around. \*\* Again, I have never said that terrorist attacks were the consequences of anti-war protests. My position, and I stick to it, is that we are involved in an ongoing conflict against terrorists. As this conflict progresses, each side is going to measure the effect of their actions against the response of the other. The side that is banking on being able to disturb the other to the point that they change their policy( terrorists ) can only be encouraged when masses of people take to the streets demanding that the war on terrorism be stopped. I never said that anti-war protests cause new attacks, I said that they encourage terrorists into thinking that they are acheving their goals. Why is this simple, logical, common sense fact so hard for people to understand? I don’t advocate preventing people from protesting, our freedoms to protest and exercize our First Ammendment rights are vastly more important than the harm it does by encouraging terrorists. To co-opt an overused phrase, if we do that, the terrorists have already won. All I am asking for is an awareness of the cost of doing so. That cost is by many orders of magnitude less than the benefit we gain by having our liberties enshrined in the Constitution, but it’s there. Pretending that it’s not, or that we are dealing with people who are reasonable and would be willing to sit down with us and compromise to reach a common solution is absurd. Also, although it has been hailed as a marvel of revelation disproving december and “his cronies”, DMC neglected to provide a cite for his “entire statement”. I’d be interested in seeing it, I’m suprised that more of you folks “absolutely dedicated to facts” haven’t demanded it. Assuming you really want to find the truth and be objective, that is. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/127 "2003-08-28T06:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > Really, at the end of the day, I’m not sure what DECEMBER and Co. (not to tar the rest of you, etc.) expect people to do. It’s quite simple, **Jodi:** **december** _et al_ simply want us all to be good little meat puppets, nodding our heads at the right time and swallowing whatever bullshit gets handed down by Karl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and the GOP Party Leadership. Any disagreement from the party line is nothing less than validation to the evildoers, because God (the Christian God, mind you) knows that _all_ good-thinking people would agree with them. Ergo, by not agreeing with them, you must be on the side of the evil Satanic terrorist sinners. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/128 "2003-08-28T06:51:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ooga booga \* > I don’t think I’ve ever seen **december** more eloquently, thoroughly, or deservingly put in his place. And he will probably ignore it, as he often does when he gets backed into a corner. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/129 "2003-08-28T07:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > The side that is banking on being able to disturb the other to the point that they change their policy( terrorists ) can only be encouraged when masses of people take to the streets demanding that the war on terrorism be stopped. I recall some protests (that I considered ill-advised) against the war in Afghanistan, but I cannot recall any other protests that could be considered a demand that the war against terrorism be stopped. I have seen a number of protests against the sideshow distraction with the trumped up charges that was the war against Iraq, but I have seen no calls for and end to the war against terrorism. In fact, the majority of the people that I know who opposed this detour would have preferred that Bush and company stick with the war against terrorism instead of using that as an excuse to play wish fulfillment with Wolfie’s college term paper. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/130 "2003-08-28T07:15:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\* Again, I have never said that terrorist attacks were the consequences of anti-war protests. . \*\* Not in so many words. But **Brutus** said it, loud and clear, and so did **december** and **read neck**. That the terrorist attacks were the _unintended_ consequences of the protests. So, you disagree with them? Good. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/131 "2003-08-28T07:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\* However, if support for the war in Iraq is, say, 70% today and al-Quada bombs a UN building and then notices that support for the war two weeks later is only 60%, you’d have to be a fool or an idiot to think that they wouldn’t be encouraged to bomb more places by this, thinking that they could further erode support for the war by doing so. \*\* To me, this is support for stopping CNN from doing and reporting any polls. Something I could really get behind. The terrorists are true believers. Many are martyrs. Idiots, all, but that’s another matter. They _believe_ in what they are doing. They _believe_ in the righteousness of it. They think their God wants them to do it. And therefore would continue to do it even if Americans were %100 united against them, in their eyes. Us being %100 united against them may actually serve to convince them of them rightness of their actions. We being the evil empire and all. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/132 "2003-08-28T07:48:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo_ > The Bali Bombing is real personal to me - real personal - and one of the single most offensive things about (some of) you Americans is that you feel obliged to ask such epicly dumb fuck questions - like when was the Bali Bombing? It’s so incredibly offensive because what it says is that unless Americans are involved - you basically don’t give a fuck - and yet every day, we in the rest of the world, get every single minutae of braindead shitful trivia coming OUT of the USA pumped down our throats as though it’s some sort of medicine we can’t live without. > > But that being said - TwistofFate - you’re off the hook now. I recognise that some of you Americans are inherently insular and there’s only so far I can get pissed off about that. I hate to deflate your sweeping, vaguely hysterical generalization, but I believe **Twisty** is a native of Dublin, Ireland. Although, I somehow don’t think you’ll take that one post as evidence that all Irish people are ignorant, insular, and arrogant. Funny how that works. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/133 "2003-08-28T08:25:53Z")
And pray tell, Miller, what part of **“(some of) you Americans”** don’t you understand? Or perhaps more tellingly, choose to not understand? What part of “some of” qualifies as “sweeping and vaguely hysterical”? Gimme a break. Moreover, last time I checked it’s my right to choose what I wish to get fired up about - not yours. You could hardly say I’m noted for such outbursts - for crying out loud. Accordingly, given that **TwistofFate’s** location identifier quotes “Spanish Announcer’s Table” - which obviously does not specify Dublin, and given that I qualified the extent of my assertion with the entirely fair words “some of”, and given that I only have YOUR word for it **Miller** that old Twisto hails from Ireland, I’d say your point is pretty watery to be honest - and that further, I suspect most of the world who aren’t Americans would agree with my initial observation - much to your wounded infuriation doubtless. And most importantly - your point has zero to do with the thread - namely, **december’s** shocking and callous misrepresentation of the truth to further a politically partisan position. So may I repeat… there were NO ANTI WAR PROTESTS in Australia prior to October 2002. They took place this year in March and April. Ergo, it’s impossible to link the Iraq War and the Bali Bombing because the latter occurred 6 months earlier. In this context, **december’s** OP, and for that matter your post **Miller** are all about ego and little else. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/134 "2003-08-28T09:47:56Z")
So now the question is how did anti-war protestors encourage a terrorist attack that took 6 months before the protests? My best guess is that it involved Nazi werewolves and a time machine. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/135 "2003-08-28T09:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > \*\* I suspect most of the world who aren’t Americans would agree with my initial observation - much to your wounded infuriation doubtless. > > \*\* All **Twisty** did was ask for the date of the bombing. And you got offended. Because he didn’t recall _the date_. And from that, you assumed him to be a stupid American who doesn’t care about anything that doesn’t happen in America. I’m an American, and there’s been a lot of stuff that’s happened _here_. I’m fairly familiar with a lot of it, but I would damned hard-pressed to remember the _dates_ of any of it, save for 9-11. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/136 "2003-08-28T10:00:32Z")
Fair enough **Spooje** - you’re a cool guy. I’ve seen your posts a fair bit and I respect your wit and sense of fairness. Yes, I must concede that in my first post earlier I did indeed get hot under the collar and start slinging the “broad brush stroke” ugliness around the place. Please accept my apologies **TwistofFate, Miller** and my American friends in general. I’m calm now. But as for you **december**? You crossed the line with this thread - hope you pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/137 "2003-08-28T10:07:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*The terrorist who helped mix the deadly one-tonne Bali nightclub bomb that killed 202 people, Sawad, alias Sardjiyo, said So, anti-war protestors encouraged this carnage. I’m sure they had no such intention, but good intentions won’t bring the 202 victims back to life. \*\* Your argument then is this: a statement of thanks to those who protested against war somehow shows that these protests encouraged him to plant a bomb. I find this theory remarkably lacking in substance. For starters though, and to give at least some grounds for this theory, perhaps you could find some mention of anti-war protests in Australia prior to 12 October 2002? In exchange, let me posit a contrary theory. Is it possible that he found bigotted, rhetoric spouting fanatics who dehumanize their enemies, to be so beyond communication that he felt his only recourse was to violence? Is it closed minded zealots who criticise all questioning of their causes who helped to build this truly vicious cycle? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/138 "2003-08-28T10:09:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > \*\*So now the question is how did anti-war protestors encourage a terrorist attack that took 6 months before the protests? > > My best guess is that it involved Nazi werewolves and a time machine. \*\* Come on Kal - surely by now you must know that the French and/or the UN are the default causes for evil in December’s curious little world. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/139 "2003-08-28T10:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > \*\* > Please accept my apologies **TwistofFate, Miller** and my American friends in general. I’m calm now. > > \*\* We’re cool, brother! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073/140 "2003-08-28T11:50:42Z")
**Boo Boo Foo** , I apologize for implying that anti-war demonstrtions encouraged the Bali bombing. I hadn’t known that there were no demonstations in Australia prior to that bombing. I can tell you that I was truly horrified by that bombing and made a contribution to the Australian Red Cross on behalf of the victims. Several posters have pointed out that it’s unfair that exercising one’s right to free speech may have the impact of providing a measure of encouragement to terrorists. I agree that’s its unfair, but life isn’t always fair. One must often choose between less-than-ideal alternatives. Some have drawn a distinction between al Qaeda attacks and demonstrations against a war in Iraq. It’s commonly stated that there is no connection between Saddam and al Qaeda, that they are natural opponents, etc. Sawad’s statement shows the fallacy of that POV. Saddam and al Qaeda shared on key element – a hatred of the US and its allies. IMHO that’s why Sawad appreciated the anti-war demonstrations, even though they opposed war with Iraq, not war against al Qaeda. The demonstrations were viciously critical of the US and of George Bush, who personifies the US. From Sawad’s POV, the demonstrations encouraged a belief that the US was evil and deserved to be attacked, as well as its allies, such as Australia. Others have asked me what I want. I certainly don’t want any restriction on freedom of speech. People must have the right to say what they like and to demonstrate for whatever they please. What I want it to help educate those who mindlessly demonstrate “for peace” because peace is a desirable state. I have friends and relatives (most of whom know far less than Dopers about the issues) who simply assumed such demonstrations can’t do any harm. They participated as a way to show themselves and those around them that they were on the side of good. But, they didn’t give enough consideration to the impact of these demonstrations in the real world IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bali-bomber-thanks-anti-war-protesters/198073.md?page=8)