# Ballots in Chinese and Spanish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2002, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344 "2002-08-24T05:11:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/21 "2002-08-24T19:58:45Z")
A. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > > **Multi-lingual ballots (as well as bi-lingual education, etc.) encourage immigrants not to take the trouble to learn English.** B. > [@](#): > > **She was cut off from most of what America has to offer. She couldn’t even communicate with (most of) her own grandchildren.** I’m guessing B would have been a much better argument for learning the language than the occasional election. Monty brought up an excellent point, in that there are large numbers of citizens of this country who lack English proficiency, yet weren’t required to be naturalized. While I do think it makes one’s life much easier to be able to speak the local language, I don’t think it should take away from a citizen’s ability to excercise their rights. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/22 "2002-08-24T20:07:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > **It is necessary to learn basic English to immigrate. That requirement, obviously shows that English is required here.** Cite? > [@](#): > > **To learn just enough to pass the test and then refuse to learn more is disrespectful of the US. And I, personally, don’t want you here if you are going to disprespect the place! It’s bad enough we get disrespected by Europeans at large (seemingly).** There are quite likely many immigrants who come to this country **specifically** because they are able to demonstrate their disrespect for this or that policy, leader, law, etc. That’s part of what makes our country what it is. > [@](#): > > **And the fiscal impact would be small, but so what? Why should we spend MORE money? I see no good reason to do so…** Do you see a good reason not to? > [@](#): > > **It’s the law that if you requre it, you can request a translator. I’ve seen it. But it is hoped that if you are going to live here, you should be working to learn the language.** If it turns out that it’s cheaper to provide pre-translated ballots than translators, would you change your stance? ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/23 "2002-08-24T20:12:20Z")
**evensven** > [@](#): > > It’s not your business to decide for other people what level of English comprehension that other people ought to have, any more than it is your place to decide how often other people bathe, or what they name their pets. but how they bathe doesn’t affect the rest of the population. Frankly (and I’m sure you’re going to find this abominable), if you can’t even understand the _ballot_, how on earth are you going to understand the politics that’s being debated? If you can’t read the ballot well enough to understand where to put your cross you shouldn’t pollute the democratic process with your vote. While translating ballots into Chinese will help Chinese immigrants understand where to put your cross, it will do nothing to illuminate their understanding of what the candidates manifesto’s are and I really don’t think it’s feasible to argue that they’ll be able to understand the manifesto’s when they can’t understand the voting slip. In short, why is it a good thing to encourage people who can’t understand English well enough to vote without the aid of a translator to enter the polling stations in the first place? > [@](#): > > Heck, with so many people chooseing not to vote, I think anything that gets anyone to the polls has got to be an improvement. The English-speakers havn’t impressed me. Maybe some other group will actually cherish and use their voting rights. But what good is an uneducated vote? You complain about politically uneducated English speakers making a royal mess of the democratic process but surely to encourage people who can’t read english to vote will make things worse, not better. What we _do_ need, is translated manifesto’s for each candidate which are readily available for free either over the internet or from the local authority. _That_ would make a difference and then you would have a case for translating the ballots. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/24 "2002-08-24T20:18:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Did you not say two years ago (during our immigration discussion) that you were in the process of becoming an Irish citizen?** FYI, both the US and Ireland permit dual citizenship. Gomez, as you are in England you may not be aware that in many parts of the States with large immigrant populations there are television and/or radio stations that broadcast in the immigrants’ language, as well as newspapers and magazines printed in those languages. These media outlets are just as capable of providing adequate information about the issues at hand as the English-language media are (and yes I know that’s not necessarily a compliment :)) Incidentally, do you also believe that native English speakers should be required to demonstrate knowledge of the issues before they are permitted to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/25 "2002-08-24T21:03:30Z")
\ Ballots in Arizona have been printed in English and Spanish for as long as I can remember (same ballot, alternate pages). Some people are born in this country–making them citizens–but are more comfortable with the language of their ethnicity, since they tend to live and work with others of the same ethnicity. I honestly don’t see what the big deal is. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/26 "2002-08-24T21:52:47Z")
\*\*_By Ruadh_ > [@](#): > > Arrrgh. For the (I think) third time, people, please provide some evidence for the claim that people using bilingual ballots aren’t trying to learn English \*\* The evidence is in the supposed need for non-English ballots! The naturalization requirement is not optional. According to the immigration laws, one must be able to speak, read, and write English in order to become a US citizen. ‘Trying to learn’ doesn’t cut it. You should not become a US citizen until you have met the requirements. I say ‘should not’ due to the fact that so many immigrants do naturalize without actually meeting the requirements. It is a sad testimony to the incompetence of the INS. And **DMC** , your [cite.](http://www.ins.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm) ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/27 "2002-08-24T22:03:55Z")
And I will point out _again_ that the minimum level of language competence required for U.S. citizenship, as demonstrated on the INS page I linked to earlier, is not particularly high. I would be able to handle just about all of those phrases in Spanish, and a good many in Irish, but in neither language would I feel comfortable having to translate complex sentences in order to cast a vote. And don’t you even dare suggest that means I am not (or, in the case of when I was studying in Spain, was not) genuinely _trying_ to learn the language - quite simply you’d be dead wrong. You can argue that the INS should set the bar higher, so that an immigrant must be completely fluent rather than just conversationally proficient in English before s/he can naturalise, but that’s not the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/28 "2002-08-24T22:06:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*And DMC, your [cite.](http://www.ins.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm) \*\* I thought I was very familiar with that site, but maybe not. Would you care to show me that learning basic English is required to **immigrate** to this country? ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/29 "2002-08-24T22:43:13Z")
**ruadh** > [@](#): > > Gomez, as you are in England you may not be aware that in many parts of the States with large immigrant populations there are television and/or radio stations that broadcast in the immigrants’ language, as well as newspapers and magazines printed in those languages. These media outlets are just as capable of providing adequate information about the issues at hand as the English-language media are You’re right, I was quite unaware of that. If that’s the case then IMO there is no harm in translating ballots. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, do you also believe that native English speakers should be required to demonstrate knowledge of the issues before they are permitted to vote? In a word, Yes. Frankly, I think that everyone who is elligible to vote should take a simple ‘Political Awareness Test’ to qualify for the right to vote. It would ensure that only those with an interest in the issues which affect all our lives would be able to have a say about them. No-one (aside from t he severely mentally handicapped) is so unintelligent that they can’t learn the very basics about the issues under discussion. It is simply due to a lack of interest in the interim time between elections. Granted, the majority of those who are uninterested in politics don’t vote but it is also impossible to argue that every vote is an informed one. I know I probably sound like a right fascist but one of the few things I hold sacred is the Democratic process. Or maybe I’m just naive 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/30 "2002-08-24T22:45:43Z")
\*\* Windwalker\*\* started this thread but looks like **ruadh** took it over. I am against printing ballots in anything other than English. I don’t know about everywhere, but here in my county, they send out a sample ballot for the primary about 3 weeks prior to the election. In the case of the general election, the time is longer 4 to 6 weeks prior. You kinda decide beforehand who (and in case of propositions, what) you’re going to vote for. You get inundated before you even get your sample ballots by all the rhetoric from both sides, the positive ads, the negative ads; in addition everyone seems to be talking about the election: your friends, acquaintenances, enemies tv pundits and people at the workplace. They all seem to have some comments. Because of the time factor and the fact that you have plenty of input from others you’ll have time to fill in the blanks **beforehand**. If you need it, I’m sure someone can help with the translation. I just can’t imagine an intelligent voter, or any voter for that matter, deciding at the last minute in the ballot box on who he/she is going to vote for, which is what having the ballot printed in English would indicate. :smack: That being said, most voters I know, including this one, do the following: [ul] [li]Mark their sample ballots at home[/li][li]Take the _marked_ sample ballots with them to the polls as a cheat sheet\*[/li][/ul] \*[sub]it’s allowed and actually encouraged.[/sub] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/31 "2002-08-24T22:58:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMC \* > \*\* > > I thought I was very familiar with that site, but maybe not. Would you care to show me that learning basic English is required to **immigrate** to this country? \*\* Immigrants cannot vote, so I have no idea what you are getting at. Only citizens can vote, and learning English is a prerequisite to citizenship. And **Ruadh** , the link you provided is irrelevant. It discusses the English skills of immigrants, not naturalized citizens. ‘Immigrants’ cannot vote, only citizens, naturalized or otherwise, can vote. And to sound like a broken record, it is required to learn English before you can become a citizen. Enforcing the existing naturalization laws would seem to neatly solve any ballot issues. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/32 "2002-08-24T23:05:41Z")
Brutus: Immigrant _aliens_ can’t vote. Immigrants who have been naturalized are therefore citizens and, while still immigrants (see dictionary definition quoted below), are eligible to vote. From Merriam-Webster: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: im·mi·grant > Pronunciation: 'i-mi-gr&nt > Function: noun > Date: 1789 > : one that immigrates: as a : a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/33 "2002-08-24T23:06:49Z")
Irrelevant? Did you _read_ the link, Brutus? It says: > [@](#): > > To be eligible for naturalization, you must be able to read, write, and speak basic English. The sentences on this page are examples of the types of sentences an INS officer may ask you to read aloud or write during your interview. How does that not relate to the English skills required for naturalization? ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/34 "2002-08-24T23:08:05Z")
Here is a site that may clear up many misconceptions in this debate: [Bilingual Ballot Proposal](http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E417%257E764330,00.html) It includes costs for implementation, and costs to fight implementation. It also explains why there are many older non-English speaking American citizens. And finally: > [@](#): > > Federal law requires the bilingual designation for counties where more than 5 percent of voting-age residents say English isn’t their primary language. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/35 "2002-08-24T23:27:46Z")
What will move a person to master the common language is the economic and social disadvantage s/he will have in the marketplace. Some limited accommodation to make sure they can exercise their basic citizen rights until they do so is not that great an imposition (now, that some so-called “leaders” of the community take advantage of that to preserve their own power, through encouraging their followers to stay isolated under cover of “preventing assimilation”, so that then said “leaders” can keep blaming The Man instead of themselves, that’s another story. ) I got my doubts about the Québec thing… isn’t the adoption of national-level bilingualism in Canada a REACTION to the Québec situation, a way of appeasing the Franco-Canadians who were ALREADY talking separation? jrd – born American citizen of parents BOTH born American citizens NOT native speaker of English. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/36 "2002-08-25T03:31:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gomez \* > \*\*Frankly (and I’m sure you’re going to find this abominable), if you can’t even understand the _ballot_, how on earth are you going to understand the politics that’s being debated? If you can’t read the ballot well enough to understand where to put your cross you shouldn’t pollute the democratic process with your vote. While translating ballots into Chinese will help Chinese immigrants understand where to put your cross, it will do nothing to illuminate their understanding of what the candidates manifesto’s are and I really don’t think it’s feasible to argue that they’ll be able to understand the manifesto’s when they can’t understand the voting slip. In short, why is it a good thing to encourage people who can’t understand English well enough to vote without the aid of a translator to enter the polling stations in the first place? \*\* Okay: A. People who don’t speak english are people too, and not lost children wandering around the big city that they cannot understand. B. People who live in this city who speak Spanish have 2 stations to choose from to get news, if you speak chinese, there is a local station that gives the news, and the national programs on another station (and Japanese and a vietnamese new brodcast also, IIRC). Granted, not every city has these options, but many have options you don’t know about. You’d be surprised what “uneducated” immigrants talk about. I bet Brutus talks politics in his home in whatever language he speaks there. So if he had a visitor over who was less fluent in english but knew Brutusese, and had a long discussion on Bush’s Patriot Act, according to you…Whooptee do! Damn him to hell for not knowing english, the uneducated fool! > [@](#): > > But what good is an uneducated vote? You complain about politically uneducated English speakers making a royal mess of the democratic process but surely to encourage people who can’t read english to vote will make things worse, not better. Your opinion. I bet its wrong, but your opinion. (and didja catch the last election? i bet the Chinese would know what box says Gore!) The best part of this country is that complete morons can vote for whoever they want. If you want something different, move. > [@](#): > > What we _do_ need, is translated manifesto’s for each candidate which are readily available for free either over the internet or from the local authority. _That_ would make a difference and then you would have a case for translating the ballots. \*\* I bet they already have those(internet variety). For chinese, I’m sure you could find it somewhere [here](http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_c/index.asp) during election time. ([English](http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_e/index.asp) for the rest of us). Look up Telemundo or Univision for Espanol. Now, a universal statement of stances on issues for each candidates that are avaliable free to all from a central authority would be a good idea (if they have that, i don’t know about it, I get my info from varied news sources) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Brutus_ > Only citizens can vote, and learning English is a prerequisite to citizenship. I bet all the babies at the local hospital would be heartbroken to know that since they cannot speak english, they are not citizens and are about to be deported. > [@](#): > > It hurts America as a whole when new immigrants do not assimilate into their host culture. So do you speak Blackfeet or Crow? The main language of the house i live in is Vietnamese. So do i hurt the house because i don’t speak vietnamese? > [@](#): > > English is the language of the land, and it really isn’t asking much that people moving here learn the language. Cite? When did we get an offical language? Did i miss an amendment? And **PhiloVance** , I’ve voted in three different counties, and none of them mailed sample ballots to my knowledge. What county is Elm Street in? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/37 "2002-08-25T03:41:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > **It is necessary to learn basic English to immigrate. That requirement, obviously shows that English is required here.** This is the quote for which I asked for a cite. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Brutus_ > **Immigrants cannot vote, so I have no idea what you are getting at. Only citizens can vote, and learning English is a prerequisite to citizenship.** Brutus, do you see the problem here? Hell, in my response, I even bolded the word immigrate. I wasn’t “getting” at anything, I was merely challenging an incorrect statement. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/38 "2002-08-25T04:23:25Z")
Tars, I live in California, as you do (I think). May I direct your attention to this [cite/site/sight](http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_15day.htm) . It does, however, require that you register > [@](#): > > at least 29 days prior to an election So…unless you move frequently close to election time…you should get a sample ballot. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/39 "2002-08-25T04:33:13Z")
I just moved here in april, and moved again in town in July. Haven’t registered in my new place. so :rolleyes: you too! ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344/40 "2002-08-25T05:13:53Z")
The problems in Quebec are not caused by multilingualism. Instead, they are caused by the English speakers in power trying to force English on all the French speakers. When the speakers of one particular language are marginalized and made to feel inferior, then language differences can cause divisiveness. Furthermore, America has always been a multilingual country, and there has yet to be problems with national unity relating to language in our entire history. To postulate that such problems are going to occur now is illogical. The fact is in situations where it appears that a language split is causing strife within a country, the problems are never about language alone. There is always some underlying problem that is the real cause. Generally it happens in situations where one group tries to force its language and/or culture on the other group. Immigrants already know that they have to learn English to participate and get along in America. We can’t forget that it takes time to learn English. Making everything English only isn’t going to make them learn English any faster, it’s only going to make life more difficult for them and infringe on their rights of equal protection. Air [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ballots-in-chinese-and-spanish/125344.md?page=3)