# Bambi versus Godzilla: the illusions of Sanders-supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 4, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205 "2016-04-04T22:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/21 "2016-04-05T15:08:03Z")
If it’s Paul Ryan or John Kasich, she’s toast. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/22 "2016-04-05T15:12:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If it’s Paul Ryan or John Kasich, she’s toast. You think anyone who cast a vote for Trump is going to vote for Ryan or Kasich? Your choices are nominate Trump and lose in a landslide because most people find him detestable or nominate anyone else and lose in a landslide because you lost all the Trump voters. I don’t see how there are any other options. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/23 "2016-04-05T15:16:48Z")
It’s ridiculous to assume the conservatives will merely attack Sanders over his politics. The main attack will be something personal out of nowhere. Sure it’ll be a lie but it’ll be a plausible enough lie to linger through the election. It’ll be the equivalent of Bill Clinton is a drug dealer, John McCain has an illegitimate black child, John Kerry was a war criminal, or Barack Obama was born in Kenya. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/24 "2016-04-05T15:17:09Z")
I’ve talked to Trump voters. They like Kasich. DIdn’t ask about Ryan because he didn’t seem likely at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/25 "2016-04-05T15:27:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’ve talked to Trump voters. They like Kasich. DIdn’t ask about Ryan because he didn’t seem likely at the time. They might like Kasich or Ryan, but would they like them if Trump had a plurality of votes, but the nomination was given to Kasich or Ryan at the convention? Despite Kasich having so few votes and Ryan having none coming in? I’d think that Trump having the nomination “stolen” from him would upset a significant number of Trump voters, so that they’d be less likely to go vote. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/26 "2016-04-05T15:34:37Z")
Possibly, but Clinton faces the same problem with Sanders voters. She’s being awfully negative and dishonest and even going so far as to attack Sanders’ supporters. That’s not going to be very helpful when she wants to win them back. > **[The Democrats Are Flawlessly Executing a 10-Point Plan to Lose the 2016...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-democrats-10-point-plan-lose-election_b_9605608)** > > One needn't speculate about how the Democrats could end up losing the 2016 presidential election. In fact, a subtly complex, multi-part plan to do just that is exactly what the Democrats have been up to over the last six months. > [@](#): > > 1. Fracture the Democratic Party by broadly supporting the Clinton camp’s attempts to smear Bernie Sanders and his supporters. > > Three weeks ago, no one was talking about the Democratic race being “negative.” > > Then Bernie Sanders starting winning more Election Day votes than Clinton, started cutting into her delegate lead, and started developing the sort of momentum that could lead to catastrophic electoral results for Clinton in the latter half of the election season. After winning 60% of the delegates in February, Clinton won only 51% of them in March, and is now set to lose the first two votes on April (Wisconsin and Wyoming). The frustration in her camp is palpable, and recently was seen on the face of the candidate herself while reprimanding a Sanders supporter during a public rally. > > So the Clinton camp — with the help of the media and cable-news interviews (as well as newspaper editorials) by Party elites — changed the narrative. > > Clinton campaign staff put out the conspiracy theory that Sanders was planning (I paraphrase) “a massive negative attack campaign” in New York, based solely on internal polls taken by Sanders to determine which issues New York voters are most interested in hearing the candidates discuss. Clinton supporters Barney Frank and Bakari Sellers accused Sanders of being a “McCarthyite” — comparison to the late Senator Joe McCarthy being one of the most damning slanders in American politics — for noting that oil lobbyists were bundling money for the Clinton campaign and for her super-PAC. The Clinton camp accused the Sanders campaign of “playing games” with the scheduling of a primary debate in New York. They said Sanders was deliberately permitting his supporters to boo Clinton at his rallies. They attacked his surrogates for mentioning, in passing, the FBI investigation into Clinton’s private email server. They accused the Sanders campaign of “lying” about Clinton’s record. They accused Sanders of a secret and anti-democratic plan to convince super-delegates to vote the same way as their states of origin did (and if you can explain to me how that’s either a secret plan or anti-democratic, I’d appreciate it). They falsely claimed that Sanders hadn’t sufficiently rebuked Donald Trump for his comments about criminalizing abortion. > > And on and on. > > Every day for the past two weeks the Clinton campaign has attacked the ethics and integrity of Sanders and his campaign, usually by falsely claiming that Sanders — for instance, by broadly and on principle opposing super-PACs and money from lobbyists, no matter who their money goes to — was maliciously doing the same to them. > > In short, the Clinton campaign went relentlessly negative and managed to get the national media to accuse the Sanders campaign of doing so — a premise set up by a Clinton campaign memo leaked to the media alleging that Sanders “was about to go negative” in New York. It was Karl-Rovian political philosophy at its very best, and it worked for the Clinton campaign — but not in the way they intended. > > With each new attack on Sanders, the Clinton campaign has permanently alienated a new crop of Sanders voters. 33 percent of Sanders supporters already say that they might not vote for Clinton; so by going negative and so relentlessly, the Clinton campaign is tearing up potential November votes for their candidate by the tens of thousands or more. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/27 "2016-04-05T15:45:20Z")
Seth Abramson is an anti-Hillary blogger. And even if you grant any of his argument, the Venn Diagram of what he claims Clinton is doing and what the Republican/Conservative attack on Sanders will be has no intersect. So it is irrelevant to the future. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/28 "2016-04-05T15:54:38Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Seth Abramson is an anti-Hillary blogger. I know Seth, so it’s kind of fun to see his name pop up everywhere this cycle. As to the OP, I think you’re exactly right. Heck, even in a recent thread here I learned a couple of things about Sanders that made him go from “Happy to vote for him in the general” to “Hope I don’t have to vote for him in the general, but I still will if it comes to that.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/29 "2016-04-05T16:13:57Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Seth Abramson is an anti-Hillary blogger. > > And even if you grant any of his argument, the Venn Diagram of what he claims Clinton is doing and what the Republican/Conservative attack on Sanders will be has no intersect. So it is irrelevant to the future. Right, the Democratic campaign has maybe been more negative than I’d like ideally, but not awful. Doesn’t seem any worse or different than other primary elections in other years. I’ve seen that statistic that 33% of Sanders supporters wouldn’t vote for Clinton, but I’ve also seen that it’s closer to 15% or something like that. I think that most Clinton or Sanders voters will vote for the Democratic candidate. They might not be happy, and they might be grumbling, but they’ll do it. But as of now, there is literally no way for Kasich to win unless Trump didn’t win a majority of votes, and then the Kasich somehow swung the nomination. I would think a lot of Trump voters would be upset about that. Even if Trump doesn’t have a majority going in, he’d have a plurality. And there has been a lot of talk about how the GOP and major Republicans don’t want him to win. There are probably a lot of Trump supporters who like Kasich and would be happy to vote for him if he had been winning all along, but unhappy if it feels like he stole the nomination. There are a few Sanders supporters who might feel that Clinton is stealing the election, but I think most see that Clinton just has more resources and more support. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/30 "2016-04-05T16:34:16Z")
I think what might be more annoying is how petulant Clinton is becoming, despite the fact that she did the same thing to Obama in 2008. Except Sanders has been far gentler to her than Clinton was to Obama. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/31 "2016-04-05T16:47:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Right, the Democratic campaign has maybe been more negative than I’d like ideally, but not awful. Doesn’t seem any worse or different than other primary elections in other years. I’ve seen that statistic that 33% of Sanders supporters wouldn’t vote for Clinton, but I’ve also seen that it’s closer to 15% or something like that. I think that most Clinton or Sanders voters will vote for the Democratic candidate. They might not be happy, and they might be grumbling, but they’ll do it. The only Bernie supporters she’ll lose are the ones who weren’t going to vote for her even if he wasn’t running. There are precious few of his supporters who will vote for any Republican, and most of those would go to Trump and probably weren’t that reliable for him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/32 "2016-04-05T17:33:43Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Who is Godzilla in this metaphor? The fact that the GOP is refraining from saying critical things about Bernie Sanders because they are delighted at the way he is damaging Hillary Clinton… Also, the GOP doesnt need to gear up it’s hate & lies machine right now, as the Sanderistas are doing it for them. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/33 "2016-04-05T21:30:51Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You think anyone who cast a vote for Trump is going to vote for Ryan or Kasich? Your choices are nominate Trump and lose in a landslide because most people find him detestable or nominate anyone else and lose in a landslide because you lost all the Trump voters. I don’t see how there are any other options. This. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I know Seth, so it’s kind of fun to see his name pop up everywhere this cycle. > > As to the OP, I think you’re exactly right. Heck, even in a recent thread here I learned a couple of things about Sanders that made him go from “Happy to vote for him in the general” to “Hope I don’t have to vote for him in the general, but I still will if it comes to that.” What did you learn, out of curiosity? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/34 "2016-04-05T23:02:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > **It’s ridiculous to assume the conservatives will merely attack Sanders over his politics.** The main attack will be something personal out of nowhere. Sure it’ll be a lie but it’ll be a plausible enough lie to linger through the election. It’ll be the equivalent of Bill Clinton is a drug dealer, John McCain has an illegitimate black child, John Kerry was a war criminal, or Barack Obama was born in Kenya. Yes. (As I was reading the posts above this one and seeing (several times) things along the lines of ‘what can the GOP do to him, anyway? it’s not like it’s a secret that he’s a socialist’, I was composing in my head a post pretty much like yours.) The GOP will certainly use a wide range of attacks; Sanders’ political views will be the least of it. And there is plenty of fodder for them. Just today, for example, NPR (!) ran a story reminding us that while Hillary Clinton has released eight years of her tax returns, Bernie Sanders has yet to release his. A Raw Story article begins: > [@](#): > > Appearing on CNN’s State of The Union, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders stalled off questions about releasing his income taxes for the past eight years, saying his wife does them and “we’ve been a little bit busy lately.” > > Host Jake Tapper pointed out that rival Hillary Clinton has posted her returns for the last eight years online — leading to considerable criticism about her income — but Sanders has yet to post his. > “I’m kind of surprised that you haven’t gone further on transparency. You released the summary page of your 2014 tax returns,” Tapper said. “Hillary Clinton has posted on her website the last eight years of her personal returns, all of the returns. Before the New York primary will you match her? Will you post your full returns for the last eight years?” > > Sanders brushed it off, saying his wife was responsible for their taxes and that there wasn’t anything “exciting” in them. [Sanders defends not releasing last 8 years of tax returns: 'My wife does them' and we've been a bit busy](https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/sanders-defends-not-releasing-last-8-years-of-tax-returns-my-wife-does-them-and-weve-been-a-bit-busy/) The “hypocrisy” attack ads basically write themselves. (That NPR story may not be available online until tomorrow, but here’s a story about Clinton’s tax returns: [Hillary Clinton Releases 8 Years Of Tax Returns : It's All Politics : NPR](http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/07/31/428165994/hillary-clinton-to-release-8-years-of-tax-returns-weve-come-a-long-way) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/35 "2016-04-05T23:05:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Also, the GOP doesnt need to gear up it’s hate & lies machine right now, as the Sanderistas are doing it for them. Yeah, and the anti-Clinton stuff coming from that camp is as ugly and vitriolic as anything the Karl Roves of the world could come up with. Just personally vicious. So much of it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with _policy_ issues. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/36 "2016-04-06T00:55:50Z")
That’s some article excerpt \*\*adaher \*\*posted upstairs. So many things wrong with it I wouldn’t even know where to begin. Completely agree with the OP and related comments. In addition to the things already said regarding polling (most notably that Sanders has experienced very little thus far in the way of attacks, and if he is the nominee _he will, he will_)… Hypothetical matchups are interesting, though not all that meaningful; but we actually do have some information from the primaries and caucuses about which states Sanders or Clinton might win. (And of course it is the states that count, not national sentiment.) There are 5 states that have voted for the winner in the last four presidential elections: Nevada, Colorado, Florida, Ohio, and Virginia. Those are the swingiest of the swing states. All of these states have voted, and Clinton won four: Nevada by a small amount, Ohio by a solid margin, Florida and Virginia by 30+ points. Sanders won one of these five states, Colorado, by a healthy amount. Whoever wants to win the 2016 general election is going to have to do well in these five states. The best evidence we have says that Clinton is considerably more popular in them than Sanders. I’m not saying Sanders is doomed to lose FL or VA, but I \*am \*saying that Clinton probably has a better shot of winning in these key states than Sanders does. Certainly that’s suggested by the data we actually have. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/37 "2016-04-06T01:40:19Z")
Great point, **Ulf**. Further evidence that Sanders would wilt under greater media scrutiny: > **[Sanders feeling media heat after new interview | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/05/politics/bernie-sanders-interview-new-york-daily-news/index.html)** > > Bernie Sanders' interview with the New York Daily News ahead of the state's primary later this month didn't go as planned. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/38 "2016-04-06T01:48:53Z")
This is the equivalent of a pit thread for people who prefer passive aggressive insults. You constructed a hypothetical Sanders supporter pinata so you could bash it with your imaginary stick of self righteous superior judgement. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > Yeah, and the anti-Clinton stuff coming from that camp is as ugly and vitriolic as anything the Karl Roves of the world could come up with. Just personally vicious. So much of it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with _policy_ issues. How convenient it is to ignore or handwave away valid critiques in favor of bashing a make believe opponent. No names? Okay. Here’s one from another Sanders supporter in another thread. So far, the only reply is a semantic nit pick: > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is the presumptive Democratic nominee for president who is [considered a war-hawk](http://www.salon.com/2015/12/26/is_hillary_clinton_a_neoconservative_hawk_what_iraq_and_libya_decisions_tell_us_about_her_foreign_policy/) who [loves Wall Street](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/11/why-wall-street-loves-hillary-112782). Which isn’t an issue for Republicans whose neocons love a good war (and some of their brightest lights [endorse her](https://consortiumnews.com/2016/02/25/neocon-kagan-endorses-hillary-clinton/)) or a nice big bank (some of whom [paid her lots of money](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/26/the-new-york-times-just-perfectly-explained-why-hillary-clintons-answers-on-her-paid-speeches-dont-work/) for her insight). These are legitimate criticisms of Hillary Clinton - except they can’t come from Republicans because they’re even worse on those issues (maybe that’s why they cling to hopes that the emails will be the thing that Benghazi wasn’t). You see any invalid criticism there? See, the GOP can’t attack her on these things because they are also guilty. And that’s a-okay with you guys, right? Believe me, I have been where you are now re Clinton. I campaigned for WJC in the 90’s. Voted for HRC in the NY Senate race like a good little Democrat. I had my doubts about them, but after those long hard years of Reagan and Bush, I was willing to accept the progressive shortcomings in order to get a Democrat back in the WH and senate. I hoped they would pivot left after winning. And there was a time when WJC could have done so. But he didn’t. He squandered that opportunity and instead we got deregulation, and welfare reform, and DOMA, and don’t ask don’t tell, and botched health care reform, etc. And with Senator HRC we got an Iraq war vote. And through it all, I had to reflexively defend them, because after all, they were my people, they were Democrats. Even the unnecessarily stupid and low class bullshit had to be rationalized or handwaved, just like I see happening now from Clinton supporters. This is what the Clintons do to their supporters - they turn them into fools and patsies. I paid my dues with them and I am done. Their bullshit is on you guys now. You better pace yourselves, because I doubt it’s going to change now. I’ll be very happy to be wrong about that, but I have no illusions… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/39 "2016-04-06T02:45:37Z")
Which candidate does better in a primary says almost nothing about which candidate would do better in the general election, because they are two different electorates. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/40 "2016-04-06T02:48:08Z")
I didn’t much want Clinton, myself. But she’s the only one running who will win. Win the nomination as well as the election. Sanders won’t. He never could. He isn’t now and his future is even worse. Is winning all that matters? This year? Hell, yeah. There are no other arguments. If you want a progressive moment, start it from the bottom up. Don’t try top down. If a progressive doesn’t get the nomination you know whose fault it is? Progressives. No one else has any blame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=3)