# Bambi versus Godzilla: the illusions of Sanders-supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 4, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205 "2016-04-04T22:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/101 "2016-04-06T18:22:25Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Read my reply to **jsgoddess** if you’re sincerely interested. That’s your personal view on Sanders running to get his issues out there and that’s probably true, but it isn’t something created by the Clinton campaign to get Sanders to explain in greater detail how he’s going to get his issues put in practice. It’s something that people are going to want to know. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/102 "2016-04-06T18:32:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Quoting someone else is not an excuse, and it was crackpottery then and is crackpottery now. > > And I am not accusing him of personal abuse of women (not sure where that’s coming from) but of having _poor judgment about woo_. It comes up with GMOs, with alternative medicine, with that ghastly bullshit regarding cancer (which he was still repeating years later), and probably with other stuff. [Here’s an article talking about his approach to science in general.](http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bernie-sanders-embraces-alternative-medicine/) I want to reply to this thoughtfully but I have to go to work now. I appreciate your opinion and where you’re coming from but I’d like to offer my perspective. To be continued later. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/103 "2016-04-06T18:35:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Quoting someone else is not an excuse, and it was crackpottery then and is crackpottery now. > > And I am not accusing him of personal abuse of women (not sure where that’s coming from) but of having _poor judgment about woo_. It comes up with GMOs, with alternative medicine, with that ghastly bullshit regarding cancer (which he was still repeating years later), and probably with other stuff. [Here’s an article talking about his approach to science in general.](http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bernie-sanders-embraces-alternative-medicine/) I read that article and, while I think there might be a bit of political motivation involved, I tend to agree overall. I have a problem with one point in particular: the painting of alternative medicine as utter quackery. There are definitely concepts that are used which are borne out by the scientific community, i.e. the effect of positive mental outlook on general health and that psychosomatic illnesses do exist. I also don’t have a problem with funding research into promising avenues in what is termed ‘alternative medicine.’ How else is it supposed to be proven, one way or the other? I agree that there are definitely false practitioners, maybe even a lot of them. But I prefer to keep options open rather than making blanket statements that the entire ‘field’ is worthless. Having said that, I’m not well-informed enough on Bernie’s current beliefs on this issue to be able to judge. Yes, I’ve seen his early pulp articles, but there’s a world of difference between age 28 and age 74. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/104 "2016-04-06T19:54:43Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > … For A - What legislation? Is it going to be a Bill of Attainder or is there something more specific he’d use to determine the biggest banks? That’s the whole question involved in the Daily News article. How is he going to do this? I mean the “Too Big Too Fail Act” is woefully vague (have you read it? - it’s like 3 pages) > Reintroducing Glass-Steagall is a plan as is a financial transaction tax (which, interestingly enough, Clinton mentioned first… so it isn’t just Clinton ‘taking’ Sanders’ positions ;)) - but is that it? Does he really think that by itself will reign in “Wall Street”? > I guess text of actual legislation may be good ;), but barring that give me some specifics of how you are going to structure your plans. > [@camille](#): > > … I don’t think he had enough time to put forward a campaign in the way HRC has - she’s been planning this for at least 16 years now. So I am not surprised he seems deficient in the specifics compared to her. … But this–the subject of that part of the \*Daily News \*interview, breaking up the banks–is at the very foundation of Sanders’ message…isn’t it? That Wall Street has been harming the US economy by increasing income inequality, and must be stopped from continuing such harm? So why didn’t he have a correct, specific answer to offer? From the interview: > [@](#): > > Daily News: Well, it does depend on how you do it, I believe. And, I’m a little bit confused because just a few minutes ago you said the U.S. President would have authority to order… > > Sanders: No, I did not say we would order. I did not say that we would order. The President is not a dictator. > > Daily News: Okay. You would then leave it to JPMorgan Chase or the others to figure out how to break it, themselves up. I’m not quite… > > Sanders: You would determine is that, if a bank is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. And then you have the secretary of treasury and some people who know a lot about this, making that determination. If the determination is that Goldman Sachs or JPMorgan Chase is too big to fail, yes, they will be broken up. > > Daily News: Okay. You saw, I guess, what happened with Metropolitan Life. There was an attempt to bring them under the financial regulatory scheme, and the court said no. And what does that presage for your program? > > Sanders: It’s something I have not studied, honestly, the legal implications of that. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/04/05/9-things-bernie-sanders-shouldve-known-about-but-didnt-in-that-daily-news-interview/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/04/05/9-things-bernie-sanders-shouldve-known-about-but-didnt-in-that-daily-news-interview/) > [@camille](#): > > What would it take for you to say no to a D candidate? If Sanders is the candidate, I will vote for him. This, despite two major forebodings: first, a reasonable surmise that he will get nothing accomplished due to his poor track record on, well, getting things accomplished (in his 26 years in Congress, he has gotten passed only three bills he’s authored–and two of them were re-namings of post offices). Second: under a Sanders Presidency, I believe, there will be record GOP turnout for the 2018 midterms, resulting in a massive increase in GOP representation in both houses of Congress. (If Clinton become President there would likely be Democratic losses in Congress in 2018, too, as it has become a pattern in US politics for the President’s party to lose seats. But I believe the losses would be worse under Sanders.) But overriding all that is the simple fact that if Sanders is President, there will be no Supreme Court nominations of right-wingers. It may be that no one Sanders nominates could be confirmed. But at least we can be sure that no right-winger would be confirmed (because Sanders, like Clinton, would never nominate a right-winger). For me, nothing outweighs the importance of Supreme Court nominations. Aside from that: there’s something in the wording of “What would it take for you to say no to a D candidate?” that sounds to me like the attitude all too common among certain contingents of Sanders supporters: the concept that the Pure and Noble thing is to refrain from voting. Regardless of whether or not the poster was voicing that view, I have to say that the view itself is not respectable. That view is not the viewpoint of an adult. (Again, I’m taking no position on the question of whether that particular poster actually holds the opinion that the Pure and Noble thing is to refrain from voting.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/105 "2016-04-06T20:01:29Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I also don’t have a problem with funding research into promising avenues in what is termed ‘alternative medicine.’ How else is it supposed to be proven, one way or the other? You know what they call alternative medicine once it has been proven to work? Medicine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/106 "2016-04-06T20:09:35Z")
Sanders’ following ain’t no Bambi and Trump’s ain’t no Godzilla. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/107 "2016-04-06T20:35:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sanders’ following ain’t no Bambi and Trump’s ain’t no Godzilla. I hate to utter this cliché, but: did you read the OP? Because that’s not what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/108 "2016-04-06T20:38:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > How do you figure this is only ten percent? I have the current tax forms… If I were making this commercial, though, I’d leave out percentages and say “Someone earning $45,000 a year will see their taxes _virtually double_ under Sanders’s plan”. I screwed up my calculation. It’s much higher than 10%. The attack ads would be devistating and wouldn’t even have to be inaccurate. Though they would be. > [@rogerbox](#): > > I thought this board was about fighting ignorance. I’m not sure what you’re going on about. My claims about Clinton’s disproportionate support among minorities are based upon my reading of the 538 website. If that helps. [http://fivethirtyeight.com/](http://fivethirtyeight.com/) > [@camille](#): > > Frankly, I don’t think Sanders got into the race with the idea he could win. He wanted to speak to these issues, especially knowing that HRC had cleared the field in advance and would, under those circumstances, not be challenged on them. That’s why I supported his campaign. Frankly, I support your reasoning. I want Sanders to lose, but I also want him to move the Overton window. That means some have to vote for him. This primary is going better than I have the right to hope for. > [@](#): > > I don’t think he had enough time to put forward a campaign in the way HRC has - she’s been planning this for at least 16 years now. So I am not surprised he seems deficient in the specifics compared to her. I don’t expect him to win, but I want to keep these issues in the conversation, up to and beyond the election. The problem is Sanders and the Progressive Caucus have been around for decades. Ideally, they would have a well vetted platform up and running. And they really don’t. No problem: campaigns are in large part aspirational. But it does point to a modest weakness within the US hard left. (It’s much more acute in the realm of foreign policy IMHO. The peace movement offers trivial push-back against the national security establishment among policy wonks as I understand it.) The Democrats consistently win electoral majorities, but their supporters are concentrated in urban areas. The biggest challenge as I see it is persuading rural areas to vote Democratic, neurotypical and pro-compromise, the last which forms the basis of our democratic system and indeed all democratic systems. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/109 "2016-04-06T21:12:08Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Declarations of intent are not plans! You need to actually come up with some comprehensive ideas of how to do things, rather than “we’ll just wing it when we get into office”. I’m OK with his stated intent to break up the big banks. Beats all the nothing we get from the other candidates on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/110 "2016-04-06T21:15:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > A) Good luck getting that past Congress. > B) Ditto. > C) Triple ditto. > > So, in other words, he will get nothing done. He will at least TRY to get something done, and perhaps in trying he will succeed here and there. Hillary will not even try. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/111 "2016-04-06T21:16:30Z")
How much has he tried until now? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/112 "2016-04-06T21:16:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The texts of legislation he’s previously introduced over his many years in Congress would do fine. :dubious: > > But Sanders will. Got it. His site directly references past legislation he has sponsored or co-sponsored along the lines cited. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/113 "2016-04-06T21:22:04Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well Teddy Roosevelt SOMEHOW managed to break up AT&T by breaking it up into regional companies … I’m betting Bernie can reintroduce regional banking. We’d have Chase South, Chase West, Chase Mountains, Chase Midwest, Chase Northeast, etc. and the same for the five other banks Sanders mentioned. [QUOTE=Wikipedia] The breakup of the Bell System was mandated on January 8, **1982** , by an agreed consent decree providing that AT&T Corporation would, as had been initially proposed by AT&T, relinquish control of the Bell Operating Companies that had provided local telephone service in the United States and Canada up until that point.[1] This effectively took the monopoly that was the Bell System and split it into entirely separate companies that would continue to provide telephone service. [/QUOTE] OMG! Zombie Teddy Roosevelt! I bet even a zombie Roosevelt understands more about antitrust law and why it doesn’t apply to these banks than this comment indicates. OK, you’re probably thinking of the breakup of John D. Rockefeller’s [Standard Oil Company](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil_Co._of_New_Jersey_v._United_States). But that was in 1911, under President Taft, and was also an antitrust case. As the lawyers say, objection on the grounds that it is irrelevant, immaterial, and incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/114 "2016-04-06T21:25:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > His site directly references past legislation he has sponsored or co-sponsored along the lines cited. Any fool can file a bill. What’s he actually done to try to enact any of it? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/115 "2016-04-06T22:32:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Any fool can file a bill. What’s he actually done to try to enact any of it? [Here’s a list of legislation Bernie has worked to pass.](http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-gets-it-done-sanders-record-pushing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you) it’s quite long, considering that the Republicans have controlled one or both houses of Congress for most of his time there. It’s from Alternet but there are links to all the bills. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/116 "2016-04-06T22:34:17Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Declarations of intent are not plans! You need to actually come up with some comprehensive ideas of how to do things, rather than “we’ll just wing it when we get into office”. You make Sanders sound like Donald Trump. Sanders has a long history of getting bills passed in the teeth of opposition, as I pointed out in my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/117 "2016-04-06T22:40:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > He will at least TRY to get something done, and perhaps in trying he will succeed here and there. Hillary will not even try. So glad you know Hillary that well. When are you having her over for dinner next? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/118 "2016-04-06T23:16:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > [Here’s a list of legislation Bernie has worked to pass.](http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-gets-it-done-sanders-record-pushing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you) it’s quite long, considering that the Republicans have controlled one or both houses of Congress for most of his time there. It’s from Alternet but there are links to all the bills. Bernie has been a Rep from 1991 to 2006 and a Senator since then. During that time the Dems controlled the House for 8 years and the Senate for 8 years. What bills did Sanders get passed during those years? It’s a simple question. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/119 "2016-04-07T00:08:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bernie has been a Rep from 1991 to 2006 and a Senator since then. During that time the Dems controlled the House for 8 years and the Senate for 8 years. What bills did Sanders get passed during those years? It’s a simple question. Simple answer: read my response to **Elvis1Lives** , above. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/120 "2016-04-07T00:43:28Z")
Only a slight derailment… I swear I want to take the word ‘momentum’ out back behind the woodshed and thrash it with a stick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=7)