# Bambi versus Godzilla: the illusions of Sanders-supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 4, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205 "2016-04-04T22:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/141 "2016-04-07T15:40:58Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > … when asked straight up the simple question of whether Sanders is qualified, she _refuses to admit it._ Even accepting _that_ interpretation … refusing to say he is qualified is a far far far cry from stating he is not. Similar to Sanders refusing to say he will endorse Clinton if he (hypothetically) loses the nomination is not the same as saying he will not, and his saying that “we will see” about helping downticket races is not the same as saying he will not. Again, he OTOH claims that she is not qualified to be president and in the process _quoted her_ as saying something that she absolutely did not say. Either of them are crossing major ethical lines in my book. You think that my thinking that is “Bernie Derangement Syndrome”? **camille** , are you saying that it’s okay for Sanders to _misquote_ Clinton because the some in the media were spinning her statement to mean something that she did not say? That there is no reason for Sanders to have anything than absolute and complete faith that a newspaper headline is 100% accurate? Okay, let’s accept that he made that honest mistake, read a headline and felt there was no need to fact check before repeating it and responding with statements that are hard to come back from. Mistakes happen and he fucked up. Under that assumption the question then is how he responds in face of that mistake. So far he is doubling down. The worst possible response to make. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/142 "2016-04-07T16:24:24Z")
I was at the rally at Temple last night. Personally, I thought it was a mistake to word it the way he did, but it was the culmination of attacks coming from the Clinton campaign, which was conveniently and coincidentally coordinated with the Daily News, CNN and the Washington Post. In addition to the WaPo and CNN stories already mentioned, The Daily News posted the headline: “Bernie’s Sandy Hook Shame”, and HRC sent out this tweet: .@BernieSanders prioritized gun manufacturers’ rights over the parents of the children killed at Sandy Hook. There was also this: [Clinton: New York criminals get guns from Vermont](http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/albany/2016/04/8595700/clinton-new-york-criminals-get-guns-vermont) ALBANY — Hillary Clinton ratcheted up her attacks on Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders’ gun control record Monday, telling a private gathering of state legislators near the State Capitol that many of the guns used by New York criminals come across the border from the Green Mountain State. “She said she wants to work to get illegal guns off the street and said it’s been part of her work as an elected official to strengthen laws to keep America safe. She said that it’s going to be coming out in the very near future that many of the catastrophes that have taken human lives in the State of New York have been the product of guns coming over the border from Vermont,” said State Sen. Tim Kennedy, a Democrat from Buffalo. “That’s the first I heard it. I think it caught everybody’s attention and we’re looking forward to learning more about it.” Keep in mind the Mort Zuckerman, who owns the Daily News, is a Clinton fundraiser, and has donated to the Clinton Foundation. WaPo owner Bezos also owns Amazon, was awarded a 16.5m contract from HRC’s State department. WaPo ran 16 anti-Sanders articles in 16 hours in March. Why would the front runner, who is all but certain to take the nomination, throw all this out there if party unity is a concern? The hostility between the two camps is off the charts on social media. Sanders will raise a lot more money. Will it help HRC do better in NY? Anyone’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/143 "2016-04-07T16:27:04Z")
I’m trying to be neutral re: Hillary vs Bernie. I _like_ Bernie more, but think Hillary would make a better President. Mainly, I want Demo victory in November, which probably means I want Hillary, though I’m not completely certain of that. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > Yeah, and the anti-Clinton stuff coming from that camp is as ugly and vitriolic as anything the Karl Roves of the world could come up with. Just personally vicious. So much of it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with _policy_ issues. Have I missed something? Sanders did call Hillary unqualified because of her vote for Cheney-Bush War in Iraq, _but that vote was **knowably stupid** at the time._ (Gore, Obama, Byrd and others I respect most did NOT fall for that stupidity.) > [@DSeid](#): > > Similar to Sanders refusing to say he will endorse Clinton if he (hypothetically) loses the nomination is not the same as saying he will not, and his saying that “we will see” about helping downticket races is not the same as saying he will not. I’m not sure about the placement of your “hypothetically.” Does any of this correspond to something Sanders actually said (or refused to say)? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/144 "2016-04-07T16:38:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What a silly summary. … What a silly response. The claim was made that “Sanders has a long history of getting bills passed in the teeth of opposition” - simply put that is untrue. No more and no less than that and comparisons with “Paul Rand” and Newt Gingrich are not at issue. [This](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/27/bernie-sanders-record-in-congress-shows-little-soc/?page=all) is _his_ record > [@WaPo](#): > > During his quarter-century in Congress, Mr. Sanders has been the chief sponsor of just three bills that were signed into law: two renaming U.S. Postal Service offices in his home state of Vermont and one that increased the annual cost-of-living raise for veterans’ benefits, which he secured as chairman of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee in 2013. … > > … All told, Mr. Sanders introduced 353 bills during 16 years in the House and nine years in the Senate, giving him a success rate of just less than 1 percent. By comparison, Sen. Jack Reed, a Rhode Island Democrat who like Mr. Sanders has amassed a quarter-century in Congress, has had eight bills signed into law out of 376 introduced. > > Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Sanders is challenging for the Democratic nomination, spent eight years in the Senate. She introduced 409 bills on which she was the lead sponsor, and three became law … So yeah, in a fraction of time the same time in Congress Clinton introduced more bills and got as many passed. I again give him props on his one bill that mattered, regarding veterans’ benefits. That’s one more bill that mattered than Clinton had. Mostly though his record is one of tilting at windmills. Great if you are an ingenious gentleman from La Mancha, but not the best skill set for a president. Granted, few Congresscritters are very effective. Claiming though that he in particular has been is just factually untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/145 "2016-04-07T16:41:11Z")
Yeah, I’m sure the Daily News and Washington Post wrote those stories at the behest of Hillary. Give me a break. That’s an excuse for Bernie to ratchet up the same old criticisms he’s had from the beginning. He’s just saying them louder now. I want her to say at the debate, OK, you’ve had a week now to bone up on the details of your central policy; tell us what they are. I want her to beat him like a redheaded stepchild. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/146 "2016-04-07T16:47:35Z")
> [@camille](#): > > In any case, they weren’t Sander’s theories; he was citing Reich’s work, which fit into the cultural ideas of the time, and therefore had editorial interest. This was before the link between cervical cancer and STD’s/sexual activity were known. I see no indication that he’s been problematic on any women’s issues in all his time in politics, and there’s no history of personal abuse of women. You keep arguing that we shouldn’t blame him because he trusted a quack who died in prison for fraud. Now, perhaps you can explain why you think him being so shockingly stupid isn’t going to be an issue if he gets to the general? Do you really think when he gets to the general the parents of teenage girls aren’t going to find this troubling. Furthermore how do you know there’s not more, that this isn’t the tip of the iceberg ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/147 "2016-04-07T16:51:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Simple answer: read my response to **Elvis1Lives** , above. “\*Here’s a list of legislation Bernie has worked to pass.” \*Not what I asked, I asked " What bills did Sanders \*get passed \*during those years?." ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/148 "2016-04-07T16:58:42Z")
The Sandernistas have done it again. They have allowed the GOP to dupe them into attacking “Maggie” Hassan, the Gov of NH, and a good shot at becoming Senator, and thus making the Senate more like a 50/50 again. But she’s a lousy stinky Superdelegate,:rolleyes: and one who has said she would vote for Clinton, thus the Sandernistas are going to work hard to make sure the GOP retains control of the Senate. Nice job guys!:mad: When will the Sandernistas stop taking their cues from Karl Rove? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/149 "2016-04-07T17:02:23Z")
> [@camille](#): > > … Why would the front runner, who is all but certain to take the nomination, throw all this out there if party unity is a concern? … Because Sanders has made it clear that he actually will keep with the characterizations of her as a warmongering paid for dishonest stooge of corporate interests no matter how many three Pinocchios he needs to tell in the process, through the convention, where, if true to his word, he will still argue that she should not get the nomination even with the most pledged delegates and a bigger margin in the most votes. Handling him with kid gloves while he does that will not lead to a united party on the other side of June and will leave her (needlessly) damaged for the general. That has now become a given outcome. If he attacks her without being attacked back in similar magnitude on _his_ weaknesses then he will do well enough in NY to keep his storyline alive. You are right that she is all but certain to take the nomination but keeping those sorts of unanswered attacks going into the convention? A pivot from that bile then will be too little too late to matter much as far as creating unity goes. She needs to put it away, to, in the vernacular of an old video game, “Finish him!”, to _bury him_ in New York. To do that she may have no choice other than to fight fire with fire. Bury him in NY and Warren comes out to declare it is over and time to heal, time to unite, and the scabs get to form … anything less and no matter how virtually impossible his actual victory may be his actions that harm the general election prospects continue. > [@septimus](#): > > … I’m not sure about the placement of your “hypothetically.” Does any of this correspond to something Sanders actually said (or refused to say)? “Hypothetically” because “all but certain” is not certain. Some Sanders supporters are confident that somehow their preferred candidate will prevail. Hence the circumstance of what he’ll do if he loses is a for now hypothetical “if” case, not a “when he loses” scenario. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/150 "2016-04-07T17:03:07Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > That’s your personal view on Sanders running to get his issues out there and that’s probably true, but it isn’t something created by the Clinton campaign to get Sanders to explain in greater detail how he’s going to get his issues put in practice. It’s something that people are going to want to know. I find this angle of attack anusing coming from Clinton who told Wallstreet to ‘cut it out’ while gambling with the global economy over cocktails. She is the one who has to prove she can get things done regarding the issues we care about, since it appears she doesn’t want anything to be done at all. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/151 "2016-04-07T17:05:17Z")
Bills are not the only measure of effectiveness. From [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/): Out of 419 amendments Sanders sponsored over his 25 years in Congress, 90 passed, 21 of them by roll call votes. From 1995 to 2007, Sanders passed 17 amendments by a recorded roll call vote — more than any other member in the House. Volden and Vanderbilt University’s Alan Wiseman assess the legislative effectiveness of House members by comparing their records to a benchmark. According to this analysis, Sanders has either met or exceeded expectations during his tenure in the House. Lawmakers who belong to the party in control are five times more likely to have their bills go anywhere than minority party members, according to Volden. So Sanders’ legislative approach may seem like fixating on small potatoes, but for an independent who caucuses with the minority party, it’s a smart strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/152 "2016-04-07T17:13:33Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I find this angle of attack anusing coming from Clinton who told Wallstreet to ‘cut it out’ while gambling with the global economy over cocktails. She is the one who has to prove she can get things done regarding the issues we care about, since it appears she doesn’t want anything to be done at all. ‘Attack anusing?’ Really? You couldn’t be objective if your life depended on it. If Bernie wants to be President, _he_ has to prove it too. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/153 "2016-04-07T17:40:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > ‘Attack anusing?’ Really? You couldn’t be objective if your life depended on it. > > If Bernie wants to be President, _he_ has to prove it too. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. Amusing, tragic typo there. And yes I believe Bernie should prove he has what it takes as all presidential candidates do in the free market of ideas… projecting much? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/154 "2016-04-07T17:55:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “\*Here’s a list of legislation Bernie has worked to pass.” \*Not what I asked, I asked " What bills did Sanders \*get passed \*during those years?." Question has already been answered in this thread, along with comparisons of other Senators. I think for a socialist he’s done rather well. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/155 "2016-04-07T17:57:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Sandernistas have done it again. They have allowed the GOP to dupe them into attacking “Maggie” Hassan, the Gov of NH, and a good shot at becoming Senator, and thus making the Senate more like a 50/50 again. > > But she’s a lousy stinky Superdelegate,:rolleyes: and one who has said she would vote for Clinton, thus the Sandernistas are going to work hard to make sure the GOP retains control of the Senate. Nice job guys!:mad: > > When will the Sandernistas stop taking their cues from Karl Rove? How dare Sanders supporters oppose a Hillary supporter? Really, this is just sad. Sanders supporters have a right to oppose those who oppose them. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/156 "2016-04-07T18:17:16Z")
And those who aren’t Sanders partisans have the right to point out they are acting like the Tea Party and treat them similarly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/157 "2016-04-07T18:17:30Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Question has already been answered in this thread, along with comparisons of other Senators. No, it hasn’t. If it has, then you can find it and post it, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/158 "2016-04-07T18:27:55Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Amusing, tragic typo there. And yes I believe Bernie should prove he has what it takes as all presidential candidates do in the free market of ideas… projecting much? :dubious: Funny, but that’s not what you said a few posts ago. > [@rogerbox](#): > > She is the one who has to prove she can get things done regarding the issues we care about, since it appears she doesn’t want anything to be done at all. I see nothing intimating anything about Bernie. It’s a standard lawyer’s trick, called ‘shifting ground.’ If you can’t defend your own position, try to put the opponent on the defensive. No projection whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/159 "2016-04-07T18:31:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, it hasn’t. If it has, then you can find it and post it, eh? If you can’t be bothered to read the thread, I can’t be bothered to read it for you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/160 "2016-04-07T18:31:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > How dare Sanders supporters oppose a Hillary supporter? > > Really, this is just sad. Sanders supporters have a right to oppose those who oppose them. Oppose- _why_? Her vote as a superdelegate makes no difference. She isnt opposing them in any way. But torpedoing her senate run so the _GOP candidate wins?_ That’s a complete douchenozzle act. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=9)