# Bambi versus Godzilla: the illusions of Sanders-supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 4, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205 "2016-04-04T22:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/161 "2016-04-07T19:37:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I see nothing intimating anything about Bernie. It’s a standard lawyer’s trick, called ‘shifting ground.’ If you can’t defend your own position, try to put the opponent on the defensive. > > No projection whatsoever. I’m not sure if you’re being willingly obtuse or not. My two posts don’t contradict each other in any way, have you been going to the Bricker school of gotchas, perhaps? OBVIOUSLY since I am a Bernie supporter, I think Bernie has already has already shown that he will do more for the issues that I care about, that Hillary has shown she does not care about, which is why she thinks telling Wall Street to “Cut it out” is sufficient, if she even wanted them to in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/162 "2016-04-07T20:02:45Z")
> [@camille](#): > > … HRC sent out this tweet: .@BernieSanders prioritized gun manufacturers’ rights over the parents of the children killed at Sandy Hook. _Is this true? Did HRC herself say such a nasty thing? :mad:_ **If so, I condemn her and will sign my name in a Pit thread.** ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/163 "2016-04-07T20:14:17Z")
[Link.](https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/717797172154998784) But is she wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/164 "2016-04-07T20:31:39Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re being willingly obtuse or not. My two posts don’t contradict each other in any way, have you been going to the Bricker school of gotchas, perhaps? OBVIOUSLY since I am a Bernie supporter, I think Bernie has already has already shown that he will do more for the issues that I care about, that Hillary has shown she does not care about, which is why she thinks telling Wall Street to “Cut it out” is sufficient, if she even wanted them to in the first place. Readers of the NY Daily News (or others who’ve heard about it) would likely vigorously oppose that Bernie has shown any such thing. I know I do. How does a man loudly talk up a plan that he knows hardly anything about? And we’re not talking about one of many, this is THE plan. The one that his entire campaign is focused on. And if not, what does that say about his knowledge surrounding the rest of his proposed policies? And then he turns around and questions the qualifications of someone who is CLEARLY more qualified than he, and far more involved with that “D” after her name. Why? Because there’s nothing he can say about the fact that he showed himself as woefully unprepared on the very thing that he should have known backwards, forwards, and sideways. Bernie hasn’t proven jack, but he sure is good at manufacturing supposed insults from the Clinton campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/165 "2016-04-07T21:08:19Z")
What’s surprised me about this “I don’t believe that she is qualified” scorched-earth statement from Sanders is that he lashed out in this way on very little provocation: one April 4 \*New York Times \*headline about his campaign titled “Early Missteps,” and one April 6 \*Washington Post \*headline that incorrectly implied Clinton had called Sanders “unqualified”. He seems to be very thin-skinned. How will he deal with what the GOP will throw at him? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/166 "2016-04-07T21:14:55Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > What’s surprised me about this “I don’t believe that she is qualified” scorched-earth statement from Sanders is that he lashed out in this way on very little provocation: one April 4 \*New York Times \*headline about his campaign titled “Early Missteps,” and one April 6 \*Washington Post \*headline that incorrectly implied Clinton had called Sanders “unqualified”. > > He seems to be very thin-skinned. How will he deal with what the GOP will throw at him? Agreed, it’s part of a pattern. Remember him getting angry when pressed by the media after his “ghetto” gaffe and he ranted about how he’d talked about poverty and how it affected minorities more than anyone and he wouldn’t accept questions about that. He really comes across as someone who wilts under questioning. I’m not sure his supporters realize just how little pressure he’s come under so far and how it will increase about a 1000% if he actually somehow gets the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/167 "2016-04-07T21:31:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed, it’s part of a pattern. Remember him getting angry when pressed by the media after his “ghetto” gaffe and he ranted about how he’d talked about poverty and how it affected minorities more than anyone and he wouldn’t accept questions about that. > He really comes across as someone who wilts under questioning. Yes; it will be very easy for the GOP to come up with a montage of Sanders making irritated, huffy replies to reasonable questions; “cranky old man” will be the impression given. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not sure his supporters realize just how little pressure he’s come under so far and how it will increase about a 1000% if he actually somehow gets the nomination. Exactly; their delicate illusions will be stomped pretty decisively. It’s becoming more and more doubtful that Sanders has _any_ intention of asking his supporters, should he lose, to vote for the Democratic nominee. After he’s flat-out said “I don’t believe that she is qualified,” how could he ask them to vote for her? He will take his marbles and go home, grumbling. Screw the USA and what will happen to it under a Cruz or Trump! Who cares?! You were rude to me and I won’t stand for it! Of course I hope he won’t be so petulant and tantrum-y, and I hope he will take the road of responsibility and adulthood and think about the consequences of encouraging his fans to sit out the election. But at this point I’m not optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/168 "2016-04-07T22:00:36Z")
Shame on HRC for being so nasty. But … > [@Sherrerd](#): > > It’s becoming more and more doubtful that Sanders has _any_ intention of asking his supporters, should he lose, to vote for the Democratic nominee. After he’s flat-out said “I don’t believe that she is qualified,” how could he ask them to vote for her? He will take his marbles and go home, grumbling. Screw the USA and what will happen to it under a Cruz or Trump! Who cares?! You were rude to me and I won’t stand for it! > > Of course I hope he won’t be so petulant and tantrum-y, and I hope he will take the road of responsibility and adulthood and think about the consequences of encouraging his fans to sit out the election. But at this point I’m not optimistic. OK. From this thread I learn that my hope for a polite conversation has failed. I ask both HC and BS to tone it down, and for both to move toward reconciliation. HRC is _both_ the one more likely to win in November _and_ the one who’d make a better President. _ **Let’s not miscarry the precious youth vote.** _ **Pleeease.** ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/169 "2016-04-07T22:21:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Quoting someone else is not an excuse, and it was crackpottery then and is crackpottery now. > > And I am not accusing him of personal abuse of women (not sure where that’s coming from) but of having _poor judgment about woo_. It comes up with GMOs, with alternative medicine, with that ghastly bullshit regarding cancer (which he was still repeating years later), and probably with other stuff. [Here’s an article talking about his approach to science in general.](http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bernie-sanders-embraces-alternative-medicine/) I finally had some time to read your cite, the Time article it cited, and the original article Sanders wrote for The Freeman in 1969. The original article reads like it was written by a freshman psych major (for all we know he may have recycled one of his college papers). Assuming the Time article is accurate, it does appear he is still “crunchy” when it comes to certain issues. But I was surprised to read from your cite that Clinton is also on the woo scale for embracing the pseudoscience of [“functional medicine”](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/04/21/bill-and-hillary-clinton-embrace-functional-medicine/). Maybe that explains why the Clinton campaign didn’t say anything directly about The Freeman article when it was in the news last July. As a political attack I don’t see it getting too much traction because none of them are woo free; they’d more likely go after his fiction writing if anything. As I’ve said, I am biased, not just by being a Sanders supporter, but from personal experience. Bernie could easily be my Grandfather (just add a French inflection to the Brooklyn accent), and they both came from similar backgrounds. Like Sanders, my Grandfather was a socialist, politicized everything, and mistrusted those in power. I think that is what drives Sanders’ view on issues like GMOs, more than the available science. “The data says GMOs are generally safe, but can we trust the corporations and producers to make sure they are safe, and tell us the truth if they’re not?” is the likely reasoning. Same reasoning with the fracking issue. And when you read the Freeman article he wrote, that theme shows up as well. Not an excuse, but (IMO) a reasonable explanation. In the plus column, (again, IMO) Sanders is on the right side of climate change, stem cell research, renewable energy, and he is not an anti-vaxxer. So compared with Clinton, I’ll take a little more woo in exchange for a lot less hawk. Maybe Neil DeGrasse Tyson (who has been critical of the anti-GMO movement) feels the same way, since he has endorsed Sanders. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/170 "2016-04-07T22:25:13Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re being willingly obtuse or not. My two posts don’t contradict each other in any way, have you been going to the Bricker school of gotchas, perhaps? Suggesting that another poster is obtuse, then invoking the name of another poster, (who is not even involved in this thread), as an insult? Knock it off before you begin collecting Warnings. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/171 "2016-04-08T04:36:47Z")
> [@camille](#): > > In the plus column, (again, IMO) Sanders is on the right side of climate change, **stem cell research** , renewable energy, and he is not an anti-vaxxer. So compared with Clinton, I’ll take a little more woo in exchange for a lot less hawk. Maybe Neil DeGrasse Tyson (who has been critical of the anti-GMO movement) feels the same way, since he has endorsed Sanders. Actually, as this woman in the Huffington Post points out, Sanders is not on the right side when it comes to stem cell research. [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-c-reed/jail-for-stem-cell-resear\_b\_9335570.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-c-reed/jail-for-stem-cell-resear_b_9335570.html) He sponsored a bill that would have jailed stem cell researchers who engaged in human cloning for therapeutic purposes. Now, since it’s worth bringing up, yes, Hillary also supported a bill banning human cloning, but it exempted SCNT researchers. Once again, I get the affection for Bernie. My father is from Tehran, but my mother is from Vermont and I still have family there who love the guy, but if he gets the nomination the Republicans will light him up like a pinball machine. And worst of all, can anyone say with any confidence that when this does get out he’ll really be able to spin this in a way that will appeal to those who aren’t already going to vote for him. And finally, can anyone say with any degree of confidence we won’t find out more? Do people think that him accusing American teachers of being totalitarians “indoctrinating” our children, advocating mothers eat the placenta of their newborns and arguing that breadlines in East German and Poland “are a good thing”, as well as advocating parents tell their underage daughters to start having sex as early and often as possible is going to be the last of the claims he’ll have to explain? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/172 "2016-04-08T05:40:53Z")
The placenta thing is legit though. Cite/context on the breadlines comment? > [@DSeid](#): > > Well the “quote … unquote” does eliminate any possibility that he was paraphrasing what he believes she meant or was implying by what she was saying. It made it a clear claim of a quote of a statement _that was never made_, in order to justify his ugly behaviors. > > If the primaries were on this board that would be a warning for altering the contents of the quote box. 🙂 > > It is a very scuzzy thing to do and on the heels of his “[three Pinocchios](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/02/fact-checking-the-clinton-sanders-spat-over-big-oil-contributions/)” lies about oil and gas industry contributions it is a pattern of dishonesty that I find very disgusting. He scored a _four_ Pinocchios lie just after that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/173 "2016-04-08T06:43:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The placenta thing is legit though. > > Cite/context on the breadlines comment? Here you go. [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/28/when-bernie-sanders-thought-castro-and-the-sandinistas-could-teach-america-a-lesson.html](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/28/when-bernie-sanders-thought-castro-and-the-sandinistas-could-teach-america-a-lesson.html) From it > [@](#): > > Sanders countered that he was free to quiz real Nicaraguans on their political allegiances, but they “laughed” when he asked which party they backed because “of course they are with the government.” **When asked about the food shortages provoked by the Sandinistas’ voodoo economic policy, Sanders claimed that bread lines were a sign of a healthy economy, suggesting an equitable distribution of wealth: “It’s funny, sometimes American journalists talk about how bad a country is, that people are lining up for food. That is a good thing! In other countries people don’t line up for food: the rich get the food and the poor starve to death.”** When asked about Nicaragua’s notoriously brutal treatment of the Miskito Indians, the Free Press noted that Sanders “attempted to cut off” the line of questioning. I’d recommend reading the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/174 "2016-04-08T07:22:49Z")
Oh my. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/175 "2016-04-08T07:25:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, as this woman in the Huffington Post points out, Sanders is not on the right side when it comes to stem cell research. > > [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-c-reed/jail-for-stem-cell-resear\_b\_9335570.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-c-reed/jail-for-stem-cell-resear_b_9335570.html) > > He sponsored a bill that would have jailed stem cell researchers who engaged in human cloning for therapeutic purposes. Did you follow all the links? Did you read the bill? Because the 13 year old bill in question had an exception for researchers (sec 302 subsection d). The other thing is that it never made it out of committee. The other other thing is Sanders subsequently voted yes on later bills that supported stem cell research. Who knows the quid pro quo back story of why he signed on (along with 102 others), but the way it was written it looks like it was never prepared to actually be voted on. I don’t know the author, but it seems like a tortured argument to make against voting for Sanders. It’s convincing only if you are looking for reasons to justify not supporting him. And again, you’d have to come up with something really earth shattering to meet the level of concern I have for HRC’s hawkish ways. Keeping the neocons out of the WH is my top priority, so it would have to be something much worse than this stuff. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Once again, I get the affection for Bernie. My father is from Tehran, but my mother is from Vermont and I still have family there who love the guy, but if he gets the nomination the Republicans will light him up like a pinball machine. And worst of all, can anyone say with any confidence that when this does get out he’ll really be able to spin this in a way that will appeal to those who aren’t already going to vote for him. > > And finally, can anyone say with any degree of confidence we won’t find out more? Do people think that him accusing American teachers of being totalitarians “indoctrinating” our children, advocating mothers eat the placenta of their newborns and arguing that breadlines in East German and Poland “are a good thing”, as well as advocating parents tell their underage daughters to start having sex as early and often as possible is going to be the last of the claims he’ll have to explain? I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. The GOP will go after any candidate and every candidate has something that can be exploited from the opposition. No one other than a vetting team can know in advance what might come out. It’s not very persuasive. You are welcome to add to the other unhinged posts about Sanders, but I don’t see the point. I already said I don’t expect him to be able to win the nomination. But I will continue to support him, and I will vote for him in the primary here at the end of the month. I’m in it for the issues he’s raising, and I will continue that with or without him, but the better he does, the stronger we get to maintain the long game. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/176 "2016-04-08T07:39:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Here you go. > > [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/28/when-bernie-sanders-thought-castro-and-the-sandinistas-could-teach-america-a-lesson.html](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/28/when-bernie-sanders-thought-castro-and-the-sandinistas-could-teach-america-a-lesson.html) > > From it > > I’d recommend reading the whole thing. Definitely an eye-opening read. If he still held those views in his 40’s, I’m a lot less likely to give him leeway in his 70’s. It looks like a lifelong pattern to me. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/177 "2016-04-08T07:42:05Z")
Even if he doesn’t hold those views anymore, it means nothing to be against the losing side after they’ve already lost. What counts is who you stood with when the war was being fought. Did Sanders stand with the peoples yearning for freedom, or for their slavemasters? ---
**Author:** ![Sputnikkk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Sputnikkk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sputnikkk)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/178 "2016-04-08T09:37:48Z")
Bambi vs Godzilla, and Sanders is Bambi? If people could vote on Bambi or Godzilla and change it so Bambi would win, I think they would. Because everyone roots for an underdog, and I think that is why Bernie could do better than Clinton if he won the nomination. Also, Bernie has charisma, Hillary has no charisma, her voice is like nails on a chalk board. Trump vs Sanders would be like watching a bully beat up a skinny old man, you would root for the skinny old man. Trump vs Hillary, would be like watching two bullies beating up on each other and you wouldn’t want either bully to win. So, I do think Sanders would do just as well as Hillary if running against Trump or Cruz. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/179 "2016-04-08T09:52:07Z")
People don’t vote that way. Cf. Bill Clinton’s insightful aphorism about “strong and wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205/180 "2016-04-08T12:26:09Z")
> [@camille](#): > > I think that is what drives Sanders’ view on issues like GMOs, more than the available science. And that’s what worries me. I can handle a few little glitches. But for me, this points to a way of thinking. It points to someone whose ideology is more important than science. If corporations all came out and started supporting climate change efforts, would he start rejecting such efforts because corporations are by definition corrupt and evil? Is he just on the “right side” of some science by accident? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bambi-versus-godzilla-the-illusions-of-sanders-supporters/751205.md?page=10)