# Ban abortions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145 "2003-03-30T02:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/301 "2003-04-03T00:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*She would not have gotten married and dropped out of college so she could’ve gone on to finish her Ph.D. > > I know her pretty well, and really, I think she’d be happier if she were a Dr. right now. > > Please don’t be so presumptive as to imply that everyone who doesn’t want children will change their minds if they have them. I for one see nothing to gain in having children, and everything to lose. There will be no ‘when’ I have a kid, because I would never put a kid through the hell of having a mother who resented it. \*\* But, ask her the question…would she trade her love, knowledge and experience of her kid(s) for that pursuit that you described? I had my first born when I was still in college. Inconvenient? Yes, but I still would not trade my current life experience for something else without the children. On the subject of resentment; there are alot of women who thought they could have kids at a later time (in their 40’s) when they have achieved some/most of their goals in life only to find out that their bio clock stopped ticking and they remain childless. I recall reading one story that a woman had abortions earlier in life to stay on her career path and then when she wanted children in her early 40’s, she was not able to conceive. Who would be more resentful…your friend or the woman that chose her career? ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/302 "2003-04-03T00:19:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Who would be more resentful…your friend or the woman that chose her career? It would depend on the woman. Not all women want children, and not all women want careers. Some women change their mind, others don’t. How about continuing the hijack about regrets in another thread ? We’re all busy singing Kumbaya 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/303 "2003-04-03T00:29:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*Ah, the old “you’ll understand when you’re older” fallacy. > > Perhaps when you’ve had an unwanted pregnancy, you’ll understand where the pro-choicers are coming from; there’s so much to gain in having control over your own life. 😉 \*\* When you make that comment, it has nothing to do with age, but everything to do with experience. If you go back and read my first post on this subject (page 6?), my last two children were unexpected, and the last one was born when my wife was 38. If my wife got pregnant tomorrow (age 40), it would be unexpected, but never unwanted. And you know what? I will never lose control of my own life during that time, and neither will my wife. We talk about “what time of the month this is”, etc. and make OUR (Pro-Choice & Pro-Life) decision realizing what the consequences are for our affections. So your reverse slam on my wife and I having an unwanted pregnancy is null and void. Ask each other **before** you display your “affections” for each other, what would you do should the women of the couple get pregnant? That might curtail many future unwanted pregnancies and is pro-active, pro-choice, and pro-life. Kumbayaaaayaaaa…:o ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/304 "2003-04-03T00:30:34Z")
What makes a 21 year old more able to drink than someone who is 20 years and 11 months. Nothing. What’s the difference between a 17 and an 18 year old with regards to being able to sign legal contracts or get married? Nothing. How is a 16 year old fundamentaly more able to drive than a 15 year old. Nothing. But legally there is a difference. A line has to be drawn somewhere. I think true personhood only happens after someone has attained sentience. This doesn’t happen until well after birth. But I still think infanticide should be illegal, even though the moral distinction is not much different from that of abortion. Why? Because we have to draw a line somewhere. Physical independence seems like a good line to draw when the state’s interest in protecting potential persons outweighs the interests of actual existing persons. Personhood is legally much sooner than when I think someone morally becomes a person. But I’ll accept the law as it currently is because I know a somewhat arbitrary point has to be drawn. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/305 "2003-04-03T00:41:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IEatFood! \* > Bryan, > > My degree is in Crminal Justice (minor in Economics.) I’d prefer you not casting aspersions simply because you have no other course left to run. But you make it so easy, with your shaky logic and veiled threats. And besides, you cast the first aspersion with that “sociopath” stuff. If you can’t take it in return, then I have to wonder if you can handle a career in criminal justice. If you really _do_ have a degree in criminal justice, you’re not exactly displaying any real, y’know… expertise or anything. If you start posting well-thought-out opinions that don’t involve running people over, you’ll earn less ridicule. > [@](#): > > Do you always try to discredit everyone who knows more about a given area than you do? You’re being wrong about something is not grounds to act like a three year old. Why even the most brilliant of three-year olds can’t type as good as me. I don’t recognize that you know more about this given area than I do, simply because you haven’t displayed it through your writing. Quite the contrary, actually. > [@](#): > > Hey there pointdexter. Those are the _same_ statement. You only chose to see them differently when you realised you were talking to someone who is not a novice or laymen in the field (In fact, it is very important to my job to accurately discern such differences.) No, they _aren’t_ the same statement, and I’d be concerned about your future clients if you believe the statements are equivalent. As an example: > [@](#): > > Illegal Aliens aren’t … entitled automatically to the rights we have. …suggests Aliens don’t get _any_ of the rights enjoyed by citizens, which presumably would include the right to a fair trial, representation by counsel, protection from cruel and unusual punishments, etc. This is absurd on its face. Your corrected version… > [@](#): > > Illegal Aliens DO NOT have the same rights and privilages of citizenry here in America. …is closer to the mark, suggesting Aliens don’t get the full set of legal protections given to citizens. Also, when you made your initial statement, you followed it up with: > [@](#): > > I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s ok to kill them at will, though. …which comes _way_ out of left field. Do you plan to make crazy hyperbole a staple in your legal career? > [@](#): > > Also, you may address me agian when you are not a sociopath anymore. Till, then, just gonna hafta ignore ya. No offense. Take Care. You never had any logical reason to conclude I was a sociopath, which only implies you don’t know what a “sociopath” is. It’s another example of wild hyperbole. And saying you’ll ignore me is very nearly the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going “LALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”, which is behaviour much closer to that of a three year-old than anything I’ve done in this thread. Get out of the kitchen, pal, because you clearly can’t take the heat. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/306 "2003-04-03T00:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Ask each other before you display your “affections” for each other, what would you do should the women of the couple get pregnant? That might curtail many future unwanted pregnancies and is pro-active, pro-choice, and pro-life. I don’t get the point of this statement, **Yeticus Rex**. What makes you think people don’t discuss it ? How does a discussion on what to do in the case of an unwanted pregnancy avoid the chances of an unwanted pregnancy ? I’m seriously confused as to what your line of thinking is here. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/307 "2003-04-03T01:42:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*What? You mean you could buy and sell women as property until 100 years ago? You murder a woman without punishment? A woman could not own and run a business? A woman could not be head of state? A woman could not own property until 100 years ago? A woman could not own a patent or copyright? \*\* [Well…](http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2005/4_33/63699705/print.jhtml) > [@](#): > > Not until 1912 did a private member of [British] Parliament introduce a bill that would allow women to become solicitors. Its slow progress led four women–two each from Oxford and Cambridge–to launch a direct assault on the Law Society, with one of them, Gwyneth Bebb, appealing her rejection in the courts. Despite having her case argued by Lord Robert Cecil, **Bebb lost on the issue of women not being “persons,”** with the judge citing the seventeenth-century jurist Sir Edward Coke on the unfitness of women to be lawyers. Emphasis added. The concept of “personhood” in this context was established by and primarily limited to the legal profession, but this was less than 100 years ago. More general prohibitions against women owning property go back further, but not _much_ further. Under Napoleonic law, women had few rights to own property, and I seriously doubt any could write patents. In the U.S., women didn’t get full civil rights parity (i.e. the vote) with men until the 19th Amendment, in 1920. A google on the phrase “Married Women’s Property Law” coughs up numerous cites on the struggles to let women actually own property, as opposed to having to turn over all their assets to their husbands upon marriage. 100 years is a bit conservative, though not much. New Jersey, for example, passed their Married Women’s Property Act in 1852. The civil rights now enjoyed by woman _and_ men are recent developments, which is why I get concerned when I see efforts to take civil rights away. Removing rights is ridiculously easy, getting them is nearly impossible. I need hardly point out that outside of Westernized countries, women frequently _are_ treated like cattle. Our so-called “civilization” is a pretty thin veneer. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/308 "2003-04-03T04:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **IEatFood** said: > He’s not being presumptive. Just condescending then? A little ‘When you grow up, you’ll understand.’ > [@](#): > > A few years ago, when I was much more of a yuppie than I am now (hey kids aren’t free, lol), I would have agreed with you. Very much so in fact. Great. But I’m not you. You’re not me. What you ‘would have agreed with’ does not matter much to what kind of person I am. > [@](#): > > However, having kids does change you, for better or worse. What part of ‘I will never, ever have a kid’ is it that people have so much trouble hearing? > [@](#): > > I know there are people who would not be changed by such a miraculous event (That’s why we have adoption now. Not a pleasant option, but much better on the conscience than murder), but for most, it does. The one and only time I thought I was pregnant, I was so disgusted by it I was looking for an abortion provider before I even took the pregnancy test. Miraculous my ass. It happens millions of times every day all around this world, and often it ends without the woman ever knowing that it _was_ in the first place. My reasons against adoption are a deep and definite desire to never, ever endure a pregnancy. Adoption is no alternative to the pain and misery being pregnant would bring me. > [@](#): > > Feel free to disagree, but if you do, just keep in mind that you run the risk of sounding like Oprah Winfrey saying how easy the Normandy Invasion was. If you aint been there, how can you really know for sure? > I think that’s all he was trying to say. I find out every day, over and over again, just how hard it is to be someone who wants nothing to do with ever being pregnant or having a kid in a society that views such a commonplace thing as a ‘miracle’. > [@](#): > > We did have one. That was my point. Hence my belief the pregnancy being “unwanted” alone is not compelling enough reason to term it. I’m glad that worked _for you_. It would not work for me, which is why I don’t want you deciding for me. > [@](#): > > **Walloon** said: > Second, they do not believe the rights of the unborn “trump”, as you put it, the rights of the woman. They believe that both the mother and the child have the right to life, Ah, but the thing is, I can’t live my life with a fetus in me. I can’t do many of the things that make my life what it is. I think my right to have **my** life is the issue here. > [@](#): > > **flight** said: > There is only one person in the world who can possibly keep the child alive. The world’s not a fair place. Just because it’s the only way, that doesn’t mean the fetus has an automatic right to it. The only way I could get a milliion dollars tomorrow is to rob a bank, so does that mean I have the right to rob a bank? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/309 "2003-04-03T04:42:54Z")
catsix, forgive my asking this if it is too personal, but why are you so extremely averse to the idea of being pregnant? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/310 "2003-04-03T04:46:27Z")
**Blalron** : It was factory installed, I guess. All I know is that I have felt this way about kids and being pregnant ever since I could remember and that the harder people try to tell me that it’ll all change when I just ‘get older’ or ‘have a kid’ the stronger that visceral reaction of absolute disgust gets. ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/311 "2003-04-03T05:52:16Z")
> [@](#): > > What part of ‘I will never, ever have a kid’ is it that people have so much trouble hearing? I don’t know. What part of “You sound exactly like I did a few years back” don’t you? Relax though, I am half serious at most now. I just thought it would be a nice thing to say… > [@](#): > > Just condescending then? A little ‘When you grow up, you’ll understand.’ Just out of curiosity, are you young? There really are some things that only age & experience (Though **mr2001** may disagree, [;)]), can teach. Perhaps this is one of them. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/312 "2003-04-03T05:57:05Z")
Oh come on, I’m sure you’ll love a screaming poop machine once you have one! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/313 "2003-04-03T06:03:56Z")
Blal, are limiting that to babies? Because I know a lot of adults who fit that catagory too… Mostly Ex’s though… ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/314 "2003-04-03T06:04:51Z")
**IEatFood!,** age means little. Knowing yourself means a lot. You may have felt one way and then grown in another direction, but that has zero bearing on what direction **Catsix** or myself might take. Out of curiosity, when did you decide you didn’t want children ? Did you investigate sterilisation before changing your mind ? What changed your mind and made you decide to have children ? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/315 "2003-04-03T06:06:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > **Ah, but the thing is, I can’t live my life with a fetus in me. I can’t do many of the things that make my life what it is. I think my right to have my life is the issue here.** Here you equate lifestyle with life. Your life does not literally end when you get pregnant. The child’s life **literally** ends when you abort it. ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/316 "2003-04-03T06:47:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Out of curiosity, when did you decide you didn’t want children ? Did you investigate sterilisation before changing your mind ? What changed your mind and made you decide to have children ? First off, age matters hugely for some people, and since I do not know who I am talking to 99% of the time here, I have to rely on experience. Now, your question… I never really decided, per se, that I didn’t want any, just never made a decision to have any. I did at one point consider the idea of being 30ish and a millionaire (Not gonna happen), first. But, that didn’t happen… Over the past few years, I have just gotten more tolerant of children in general. I grew up in a largish family, and so with diaperchanging and broken toys strewn about somewhat fresh in my mind (I was the oldest), I just wanted to get as far from that as possible while starting my life. I was doing somewhat well, and was enjoying the freedom to just take off for weekends or weeks at will, not to mention many other aspects of early adulthood. But when my then SO & I found out we were going to be parents, that pretty much ended. There was some dithering at first regarding what to do (And the ex has never let me hear the end of that, even though the idea of abortion was actually hers, criminy!), but in the end we realised that though there is much to be said about making one’s way in the world and actually having a life, it didn’t matter anymore. Life or God or the Great Boojum or whatever pointed us in another direction. We now have someone else to take care of first. And really it’s not been a huge sacrafice. I still have the busy life I’d always wanted, I just also have a child to take care of first. Of course at times I worry if she will turn out messed up for it, but I do not know of any other parents who don’t have similar concerns for their children anyway. As for sterilisation, I looked into it briefly, but their were no guarntees that it would be reversable one day, so no dice for me there. A Caveat here… Just because I think things worked out for me doesn’t mean I would reco that to everyone (As I said, parenting is not for all.) In fact, if there were one thing I would do differently, it would be to wait a bit more, perhaps six or seven years older than I am presently (Not so much for maturity --though some more is always nice-- but for more financial security, as my net worth has actually _decreased_ by almost 6% in the last few months…) In regards to the OP though, the “interruption” our daughter imposed on my life is not even close to worth what the conscience issues of aborting her would surely have been. Though we now disagree on almost everything, my ExSO also feels this way (And I like to think that is _she_ can handle it, any woman could, [;)]) ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/317 "2003-04-03T07:01:24Z")
> [@](#): > > In regards to the OP though, the “interruption” our daughter imposed on my life is not even close to worth what the conscience issues of aborting her would surely have been. May I respectfully point out that that is how it is for you and your conscience ? Other people’s consciences operate differently, so just because you’re happy your life panned out one way, doesn’t mean others would be. I read your caveat, but it flies in the face of everything else you posted. And may I also respectfully point out that for someone who has : -always known they didn’t want children, as an innate way of being, rather than a conscious decision, -who decided at the age of 5 that they wouldn’t get married because that’s when kids came 😉 -then decided at the age of 12 when she first found out what sterilisation is, that that was what she wanted, -has done huge amounts of research into different sterilisation methods, -has looked at the statistics, -decided that it was the right thing for her, -then left the decision for a full year before revisiting it, -and is now in the final stages of arranging to be permanently sterilised… is in a slightly different position and frame of mind than you were ? And might find it almost laughable to be told that “You sound exactly like I did a few years back” ? Can you understand that just because you thought one thing once and have changed your mind, doesn’t mean that others will, and that it is condescending to say so ? ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/318 "2003-04-03T08:58:11Z")
I understand that not everyone will change their mind, of course. I don’t see how it is condescending though. Imagine I knew something that you didn’t. And that that something could have serious repercussions in your future if you continued not knowing it. To me, it becomes completely unethical to _not_ say something to you, regardless of how I come off. That’s how I see it, and why I say the things I do. Feel free to disagree, but that really is just the way I conduct business (In fact, it’s even my job, to some extent.) Take Care ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/319 "2003-04-03T09:07:25Z")
It’s condescending because it implies the other person either hasn’t thought it through completely, or doesn’t know their own mind. The fact that you’re doing it to help, makes it easier to swallow, but no less infuriating. Your experiences _are_ completely different from mine, so the fact that you changed your mind is irrelevant to my situation. It’s the sort of wide spread attitude which makes it hugely difficult to obtain a voluntary sterilisation. The sort of people who desperately want to be sterilised are also generally the sort of people who will not think twice about aborting, should they fall pregnant. I think we both agree on which is the preferable option. I will take care. You too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/320 "2003-04-03T09:22:26Z")
Obviously Sterilisation is much prefferable, yes. And I would never tell someone not to do that should they decide that is a viable option. I think however, doctors & such only give people like you such a hard time w/ it because many if not most may not be as convicted as you that they will never have children. What turned me away from that option is that is was not easily reversable, _should_ I have a change of heart later. I think enough people fall into that catagory that they feel the need to advise, drag feet & so on. And yes, your exp is different than mine, but before I know that, the subroutine here is to act as if there is common ground (It’s kept me from coming home with out a few new holes in my head at times, so I’m thinking it works for the most part…) As for this issue, the vast majority of people (in the choice camp) I have met are either of mind to not have a child now, but probably later, OR never want to have children, only to change their mind down the road a few years, OR are just not responsible about contraception and routinely use Abortion as a method of BC (Probably having no idea just how badly having nine or ten abortions will mangle your body…) To me, there is a huge difference between those catagories & genuinly not wanting children. Ever. And I’m sorry if I can’t tell that from a few posts. I hope that clears me up for you there. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145.md?page=17)