# Ban abortions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145 "2003-03-30T02:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/341 "2003-04-05T13:06:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yeticus Rex \* > Yeah, I noticed…hostility is your strong suit. That’s the spirit! > [@](#): > > Simple math _would_ tell you that, but I was talking about rates (percentages) among the teenage populace which is smaller in size (age 13-17) vs. adults (age 18-40something), but the percentage rates for teenage _unwanted_ pregnancies are higher than adult unwanted pregnancies. Care to take a guess at who the next generation of adults will be? Well, the problem is that _neither_ of us is providing any hard statistics on the issue. We’re just taking wild guesses, but I think my guesses a bit less wild than yours. Get some numbers on the issue and then we can discuss the demographic impact. > [@](#): > > BTW, unintended and unwanted pregnancies are not mutually inclusive. Well… duh. My wild-guess 500,000 “unintended” pregnancies did not mean I was contemplating 500,000 abortions. I understand that many of these women will simply have the child. My point was that your statement that careful adult women can easily avoid unintended preganancies is not quite true. There are simply so _many_ adult women in a country the size of the U.S. that even a small failure rate of contraceptive devices can lead to many unintended pregnancies. How many of those end in abortion, I couldn’t possibly say. > [@](#): > > I guessed you missed it in one of my previous posts…my wife _did_ have tubal ligation surgery…I did not have to run my wife through a gauntlet of Pro-Lifers to have this done contrary to your rhetorical statement. Catsix has her perspective, we have ours, quite sure. The cost involved is still cheaper than raising a child, but our reason was because my wife’s life was in danger from a tubal pregnancy. In any event, your wife’s anecdotal evidence (as well at catsix’s) may make for interesting reading, but that doesn’t translate to how easy it is (or isn’t) for millions of American women to get ligation surgery if they want it. Becuase it worked for your wife, then any woman who wants the surgey but doesn’t get it is… lazy? In some area of the U.S. where abortion doctors have been killed, do you think it’s possible that other doctors have simply moved out of that area to avoid becoming targets themselves? What happens to the woman who live in that area when they find the number of OB/GYNs has been reduced? > [@](#): > > You’re funny. When you said “quietly”, the first thought that crossed my mind was “secretly” as in implying shame. Well, you’re free to your own interpretation, of course. I personally do a lot of things “quietly” not out of shame because those activities are no-one else’s business and I don’t feel like answering questions about them. A woman who has an abortion and then makes it public knowledge risks harassment by extreme pro-lifers (please note my use of qualifiers like “extreme” and, previously, “rabid”. I am not ascribing these actions to everyone on the pro-life side, only the lunatic fringe). > [@](#): > > Thank you Captain Nitpick, I will take it under advisement. You should do more than that. Quoting another user and then altering their words to meet your purpose is severely frowned upon on this board. A simple “Emphasis added” (in this particular case) would have made everything okay. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/342 "2003-04-05T17:08:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **Bryan Ekers** said: > Lie to them. Tell them you already have four kids. And it basically takes one pelvic exam before they know I’m lying about that. > [@](#): > > catsix can offer a personal perspective on this, I’m sure. It’s been my experience having tried to get sterilized and talking to other women who tried that doctors are really reluctant to do the procedure for a woman. The entrenched attitude seems to be that women love babies and will always want more of them, so getting a doctor to agree to do it can be tough. As for expense, I don’t know about Essure, but it can cost a couple grand to get a surgical sterilization done, and that’s after you’ve made the consultations and jumped through however many appointment hoops it takes to get a doctor who will do it, which not all OB/GYNs do sterilizations, much like they don’t all do abortion. Government assistance (Medicaid) will pay for it in some situations, but mostly the case is that you’ve got to be really poor to qualify. It’s a bit different to convince a doctor to do a ligation when the patient is in danger of immediate death (hence it’s an emergency procedure) than when you’re not (and the procedure is elective). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/343 "2003-04-05T18:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > And it basically takes one pelvic exam before they know I’m lying about that. I know, I was being facetious. Frankly, would you _want_ to put yourself in the hands of an OB/GYN who can’t tell a primapera (or whatever a zero-baby woman is called) from a multip? Of course, you can always retort: “What are you, a demographics expert? Just give me the damn surgery.” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/344 "2003-04-05T20:27:54Z")
Maybe there are qualified doctors in other countries who are less reluctant to do sterilizations? ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/345 "2003-04-05T22:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > (or whatever a zero-baby woman is called) Nullipara & nulliparous, are the terms, I think. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WaryEri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea666f/32.png) [@WaryEri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WaryEri)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/346 "2003-04-06T00:09:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Maybe there are qualified doctors in other countries who are less reluctant to do sterilizations? \*\* Canada’s not much better, from my very limited experience. My 30 year old cousin had to go through a hell of alot of wrangling to get a hysterectomy after suffering from endimitriosis (sp?) for many painful years. She was still told that someday she’d want a widdle bitty baby of her very own by doctors who thought they knew her better than she did. She went through quite a few doctors before she found one who was convinced that debilitating pain + absolutely no desire to have children , ever = Justification for sterilization. ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/347 "2003-04-06T00:23:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Nullipara & nulliparous, are the terms, I think. Correct. Primapara refers to a woman actually pregnant for the first time. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire2b](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@voltaire2b](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire2b)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/348 "2003-04-06T11:42:44Z")
The simplest and easiest way to prevent abortions is to promote contraception. Nips the whole problem in the bud, so that abortion is simply impossible. No pregnancy, no abortion. Stopping people from having sex altogether is much harder than getting them to use contraceptives. But most people who are against abortion are also against contraception. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/349 "2003-04-06T11:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by voltaire2b \* > \*\*But most people who are against abortion are also against contraception. \*\* Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/350 "2003-04-06T12:45:35Z")
Gotta watch those generalizations, **voltaire2b**. It’s true that _some_ pro-lifers are also morally opposed to the use of contraceptives, but before you can say “most”, you’d have to show that at least 50% of the pro-life bunch feels that way. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/351 "2003-04-06T14:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > **voltaire2b** said: > The simplest and easiest way to prevent abortions is to promote contraception. Have you discovered a method of contraception that is 100% effective? What is it? Where can I get it? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/352 "2003-04-06T16:29:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by voltaire2b \* > \*\*But most people who are against abortion are also against contraception. \*\* From a RAND report, “[Do Public Attitudes Toward Abortion Influence Atttitudes Toward Family Planning?](http://www.rand.org/publications/RB/RB5042/)” > [@](#): > > Contrary to conventional wisdom, the American public’s attitudes on abortion and family planning do not appear closely linked; specifically, opposition to abortion does not in most cases translate into opposition to family planning. If you’ve got better statistics, **voltaire2b** , we’d like to see them. ---
**Author:** ![CastleAnthrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@CastleAnthrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CastleAnthrax)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/353 "2003-04-06T21:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*Do you really want us to trot out the medical cites again, **catsix**? There is a wealth of medical testimony out there which proclaims that the fetus IS a human being. \*\* Actually, I would like to see this. You have medical proof that what’s stuck inside a uterus is a thinking, experiencing, remembering person and not just a bunch of cells that will turn into a person someday? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/354 "2003-04-07T03:58:39Z")
_Before_ the first trimester is over, “what’s stuck inside the uterus” has a heartbeat and fingerprints, and it swallows, kicks, and responds to stimuli like touch, noise, and motion. The liver is secreting bile, and the kidneys are secreting urine. It does have basic brain function, but no, it is perhaps not “thinking” or “remembering” (what expedrience does it have to think about? what experience does it have to remember?) in the way a born baby is. But the fetus isn’t thinking or remembering, in the way a born baby is, in the second or third trimester, either. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/355 "2003-04-07T04:47:55Z")
Hey, I’ll just take this to its ridiculous extreme, because definitional debates (over what is and isn’t human) bore me. Even if the fetus _was_ sentient from day 1 of zygote development, with a fondness for Eric Clapton and a growing interest in voting for the Democratic party, I’d still favour the mother’s right to choose, because denying her that choice is abhorrent to me. Is that icky and unpleasant? Sure, it is. But if I want to have civil rights (and if I am not an idiot) then I have to acknowledge that others have civil rights, too, including the right to do certain things which I find are icky and unpleasant, including producing Nazi literature and sometimes terminating a pregnancy. If there ever comes a time when a woman can say “I don’t want this pregnancy” and a safe medical procedure can be performed that removes the fetus from her body and plants it in an artificial womb for the remainder of the nine months, _then_ I’ll start edging (slightly) toward fetus rights, but not before. ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/356 "2003-04-07T06:22:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Have you discovered a method of contraception that is 100% effective? I haven’t discovered anything. But, you might want to talk to your OB/GYN about an IUD. Though no contraceptive device has a 100% failure prevention rate over a long enough timeline, the word from my ex-wife’s office (She assists an OB/GYN in Maryland), is that some of the newer devices have yet to report any pregancies. It has already been proven _more_ effective than tubal ligation. I think though, even if it were 100% effective, no product’s legal department will ever allow it to be marketed that way. I’m sure for instance, that if a doctor isntalls it incorrectly (Though hard to imagine. From what I have heard, that’s much harder to get wrong, than say, an abortion, or an apendectomy), there may be a remote possibility of failure. You should look inot it just the same though. I am sure it’s far less expensive than a conventional sterlisation. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/357 "2003-04-07T09:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Hey, I’ll just take this to its ridiculous extreme, because definitional debates (over what is and isn’t human) bore me. > > Even if the fetus _was_ sentient from day 1 of zygote development, with a fondness for Eric Clapton and a growing interest in voting for the Democratic party, I’d still favour the mother’s right to choose, because denying her that choice is abhorrent to me. > > Is that icky and unpleasant? Sure, it is. But if I want to have civil rights (and if I am not an idiot) then I have to acknowledge that others have civil rights, too \B] You don’t see the non sequitur in your statement? _Someone_ in your scenario apparently can have his civil rights ignored. If your philosophy depends upon never denying a civil right, then you’ve drawn the wrong conclusion in this scenario. ---
**Author:** ![CastleAnthrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@CastleAnthrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CastleAnthrax)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/358 "2003-04-07T13:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*_Before_ the first trimester is over, “what’s stuck inside the uterus” has a heartbeat and fingerprints, and it swallows, kicks, and responds to stimuli like touch, noise, and motion. The liver is secreting bile, and the kidneys are secreting urine. It does have basic brain function, but no, it is perhaps not “thinking” or “remembering” (what expedrience does it have to think about? what experience does it have to remember?) in the way a born baby is. But the fetus isn’t thinking or remembering, in the way a born baby is, in the second or third trimester, either. \*\* I can (well, okay, not ME per se, but the tech is out there) make a robot that will do everything you just listed. It might even have fingerprints. It’s not a baby, even if you stuck it in someone. I believe we know at what point a baby’s higher brain functions begin. It does happen before it is born, albeit only by a couple months at most. To me, before it starts thinking, it’s a remarkably baby-like organism but NOT a person. As soon as the brain turns on, it IS a person. Before that moment, if you decide you want that particular bunch of cells out of your body, fine. It’s your body and you have the right to remove parasites. After it makes the leap from organism to person, which is really far along, I think it is killing to remove it. What I am absolutely against is the sort of very late term thing where the baby would be viable if actually born so you have to kill it then remove it. If removal doesn’t kill it, why not just let it live, outside if you must? I have had two children. We sorta planned both. If a baby is wanted, it’s a person from the moment you see that double line on the pregnancy test. It’s a person when it’s a jellybean on the first ultrasound. It’s a person when you’re going through baby name books. The last one lost me the best job I’ve had in my life because I was too sick and stupid to call in. It almost lost me my husband because I was a total hormonal bitch then sank into severe depression. It damaged my relationship with my older son because I was too tired to play with him or care for him much at all. I wanted the baby. Had I not been thinking about it as a baby all along, had I been raped or in a nonsupportive relationship and had no abortion alternative as soon as I found out I was pregnant, I probably would have killed myself, or if you must, killed both of us together. As it was, that I would take the baby with me is the only thing that kept me from doing it at a couple points. I think that abortion is a grave wrong and it would be a rare woman who was not haunted by it forever. I could never do it. I will fight to make sure others have that choice, because sometimes the alternative is worse. HennaDancer ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/359 "2003-04-07T14:23:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*You don’t see the non sequitur in your statement? _Someone_ in your scenario apparently can have his civil rights ignored. If your philosophy depends upon never denying a civil right, then you’ve drawn the wrong conclusion in this scenario. \*\* Nope, because I’m not extending civil rights to the fetus. Therefore, no contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/360 "2003-04-07T14:45:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HennaDancer \* > \*\* As soon as the brain turns on, it IS a person. > \*\* Are you asserting this as a medical fact…or are you expressing a philosophical viewpoint? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145.md?page=19)