# Ban abortions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145 "2003-03-30T02:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/461 "2003-04-11T03:30:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > She could have done anything she wanted with her life. And I know that it is me that kept that from happening. You’d better send her one _hell_ of a box of chocolates, come Mothers’ Day. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/462 "2003-04-11T03:36:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **Blalron** said: > Knowing that the rapists are out at large and could possibly be raping other women gives you more comfort than if you tried to put them away? > > This I can’t understand. You don’t understand. I don’t know where they are, if they’re alive, if they’re in prison, nothing. I don’t care either. In order to heal and become a whole person with a life I could stand to live I had to remove them from my life. I couldn’t focus on putting them in prison or whatever the hell else other people thought that I should do entirely because it caused me even more pain and suffering to even think about making my life about them, making my healing about _them_. Believe me, they already had a big enough presence in my life by having done that to me, and I very bluntly could not have handled any furthering of that without very severe repercussions. I cried, I threw up, I caused myself bruises, I could not eat, I could not sleep, and I could not stand the thought of my life for _any_ length of time revolving around them. To go through what **Yeticus** thinks I should have gone through would have been to make them the primary focus of my life for however long a trial took, and at the same time to open up painful and traumatic details of something extremely personal to intense public scrutiny. Not only that, but I’d still have to look at my family now, years later, and know that they knew, that they thought of that every time they saw me. I wanted **my life** back, and that would not have been possible so long as the sole focus of my life was those three rapists. As long as I was focused on them, on what would happen to them, they consumed my life and controlled it. The only way out of that I saw was to not focus on punishment or revenge or hatred but to decide that they mattered to me so little that I did not care whether they lived or died. It’s different from wating them dead, which is hatred. I feel complete and utter indifference to whether or not they breathe. Trying to ‘put them away’ would have made them, their fate, and their existence be the center of my life. The best healing I could do was deny them the power to control me, to be the center of my life, for even one more second. They were the sole focus of my life for 3 hours, and that, my friend, was 3 hours too long. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/463 "2003-04-11T04:12:32Z")
“oh-so-smugly”, “patronizing”, “moralistic”, “You just don’t get it, do you?”, “uninformed”, “What part of only 16% reporting are you finding it difficult to understand?”, “supercilious”, “And listen to yourself. Just listen to yourself”, “your own incredible hypocrisy” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/464 "2003-04-11T04:16:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I wanted my life back, and that would not have been possible so long as the sole focus of my life was those three rapists. But even if you are soley focusing on yourself, which is what you appear to be doing, how do you know those 3 rapists won’t put you through the same thing again? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/465 "2003-04-11T04:17:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*“oh-so-smugly”, “patronizing”, “moralistic”, “You just don’t get it, do you?”, “uninformed”, “What part of only 16% reporting are you finding it difficult to understand?”, “supercilious”, “And listen to yourself. Just listen to yourself”, “your own incredible hypocrisy” \*\* If my debating skills (or lack thereof) ever condemn you to life-shattering physical requirements based on my ill-defined moral code, then I’ll worry. Until then, you are arguing that a fetus must be protected as a precious precious thing, but only when it’s a fitting punishment for an irresponsible woman. And that is hypocrisy, at best. Julie ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/466 "2003-04-11T04:18:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **Blalron** said: > But even if you are soley focusing on yourself, which is what you appear to be doing, how do you know those 3 rapists won’t put you through the same thing again? I don’t. And it doesn’t matter. I spend no time worrying about it. Not one second. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/467 "2003-04-11T04:19:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*But even if you are soley focusing on yourself, which is what you appear to be doing, how do you know those 3 rapists won’t put you through the same thing again? \*\* Forgive me for speaking for Catsix, but I believe her point is that focusing on them at all was, to her, equivalent to being put through the same thing again and again and again and again for all of the days and weeks and possibly months of the investigations, trials, and whathaveyou. As well as costing her in her personal relationships. Julie ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/468 "2003-04-11T04:27:34Z")
Yea, that’s sort of it **jsgoddess**. If they mattered to me, they had power over me. So I made sure they didn’t count. The personal relationships were also a big part of it. Something like that would’ve shaken a family like mine in a way that we never would’ve recovered from. If anybody would like to ask me anything else about this, please e-mail. The hijack has gone on long enough. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/469 "2003-04-11T04:43:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*So what? Who cares? How is this remotely relevant? \*\* Rules of the Game, Part 2: Personal ancedotes from those who disagree with you are irrelevant, but personal anecdotes form those who agree with you are relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/470 "2003-04-11T04:47:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*you are arguing that a fetus must be protected as a precious precious thing, but only when it’s a fitting punishment for an irresponsible woman. \*\* Please cite where I said anything about “fitting punishment” or “irresponsible woman”. If not, please apologize for that lie. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/471 "2003-04-11T04:54:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > **So what? Who cares? How is this remotely relevant?** I care. It’s relevant to many people. Sorry that it doesn’t apply to you. > [@](#): > > **Because I do not like children. Because I will not be pregnant under any circumstances. Because my mother’s pregnancies were often extremely difficult. Because I cannot afford children. Because my insurance doesn’t cover pregnancy. Because my husband and I have a severe genetic issue that we cannot pass on to future generations. Because my husband has a life-threatening disability that could take him from me at any moment, leaving me with no emotional support while I lug around a physical burden that you and your ilk long to impose upon me just so you can pat yourselves on the back and say you done good.** Then why make the sarcastic remark about being irresponsible and getting pregnant when you already know that you will never have the desire to bear children…vasectomy or sterilization sounds like a good option to keep yourselves happy. Why get pregnant and abort when that’s available? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/472 "2003-04-11T05:17:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*Because, as I already showed you, there are also people who acknowledge that not every victim is going to want to do that. What part of only 16% reporting are you finding it difficult to understand? Those 84% what, just needed some patronizing, moralistic lawmakers to spur them to “do the right thing”? Or, could it be that these victims are attempting to cope with their horrible traumas in any way they can, which doesn’t include having supercilious people forcing them into actions they cannot bear? > > What is this, torture the rape victim day? That’s a great idea! Let’s put her through as much additional trauma as we can as a sop to our own morality! Woo hoo! \*\* I try to get insight and I find insults. \*\* > [@](#): > > Ask the 84% who didn’t report their assaults. In fact, I’d rather like to witness that, if it didn’t mean you’d be thrusting your opinions on people who certainly don’t deserve that. I’d rather like to see the reactions you would get when you oh-so-smugly declared that those women really had no excuse for not reporting the crimes.\*\* No smugging over here…don’t know where you got that from… > [@](#): > > **A pelvic exam immediately following sexual assault versus a procedure at a remove that is under the woman’s full control. You’ll forgive me if I don’t think they’re equally traumatic.** Full control? [You are so illusioned…](http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/nr_comment012201a.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/473 "2003-04-11T05:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Oh! I’ll answer this one. I wish I hadn’t been born. If my mom had a kid later in life, that kid would have had a much better chance than me. It would have missed years of grueling poverty. It would have a mother that had finished her college education and probably gone on to great things instead of a waitress. It would have missed out on having an alchoholic father and my mom might have had a chance at finding a new, responsible, partner. I’m happy to be alive and all that, but I know that my life came at a great price. My mother was an straight A college student. She had scholarship offers and all kinds of stuff. She could have done anything she wanted with her life. And I know that it is me that kept that from happening. \*\* My brother and I had an abusive father and my mother left and divorced him and took us to another state (when he tried to see how long we can keep our breath under water in the tub), where she got a job as a buyer for an iron ore company and raised us. She didn’t finish her degree either. She was paid less than the men were paid in the company, scraping to get by, check by check. She was sexually harrassed in the company, being only 1 of 2 women in the company of 500 men. She even had us in her office so the men can see that she already had kids and did not want to be bothered. She remarried my current step-father who was quite strict in the beginning, but knew when to release the reins. She did her best to raise us and loves us to this day and loves the grandchildren she has now. She had told us that without us, she would have killed herself and that we were everything to her. It’s great to alive, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I will send her one hell of a box of chocolates too. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/474 "2003-04-11T05:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*If my debating skills (or lack thereof) ever condemn you to life-shattering physical requirements based on my ill-defined moral code, then I’ll worry. Until then, you are arguing that a fetus must be protected as a precious precious thing, but only when it’s a fitting punishment for an irresponsible woman. > > And that is hypocrisy, at best. > > Julie \*\* The precious! Must have the precious!😛 \<–Golem I just had to do it, ill-defined or not… But seriously, some people see it as a responsibility, others see it as a fitting punishment. I see it as a responsibility, please don’t confuse me with a “fitting punisher”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/475 "2003-04-11T12:45:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yeticus Rex \* > **I care. It’s relevant to many people. Sorry that it doesn’t apply to you.** I don’t see anyone saying that it’s impossible to like your own children. You saying that you like yours is irrelevant to a discussion about people who do not want them. I say I don’t want them, you come back with how you like yours. How is that relevant? > [@](#): > > \*\*Then why make the sarcastic remark about being irresponsible and getting pregnant when you already know that you will never have the desire to bear children…vasectomy or sterilization sounds like a good option to keep yourselves happy. Why get pregnant and abort when that’s available? \*\* There is no sarcasm when I say that I can provide proof of how responsible I am being to avoid pregnancy, and when I say that it doesn’t matter at all to most anti-abortion people. I simply deserve what I get. Because no form of sterilization is 100% effective either, other than a hysterectomy. Would you like to attempt to take my doctors into giving me a hysterectomy? In another couple of years, they’ll consider it. Julie ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/476 "2003-04-11T12:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yeticus Rex \* > > * * * > > I try to get insight and I find insults. > > \*\* > No smugging over here…don’t know where you got that from… > > Full control? [You are so illusioned…](http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/nr_comment012201a.shtml) \*\* Let’s see. You say that people who have unwanted pregnancies are irresponsible, and then you say that if they _are_ responsible then of course they want children. How is that not smug? As for your link, there are risks with every procedure. But forcing someone to have medical tests done in the wake of a horrific trauma is not the same as allowing them to have a procedure done after some time has passed. Women should be as informed as possible about the risks of abortion. I sincerely doubt it would make the slightest difference to most women, but they should still be informed. Those who withhold information should be ashamed of themselves, and hopefully kicked out of the profession. Julie ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/477 "2003-04-11T12:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*Rules of the Game, Part 2: Personal ancedotes from those who disagree with you are irrelevant, but personal anecdotes form those who agree with you are relevant. \*\* How is his liking for his children relevant to a discussion about abortion? I could mention that I like baseball. Would that be relevant? It wouldn’t even be relevant if I were trying to force you to watch baseball. No one is disputing that some people like children. No one is disputing that some people like their own children. Anecdotes about how that is true are completely useless when there is no one arguing against it. Julie ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/478 "2003-04-11T14:41:30Z")
I like my children. I like my children so much that I think they should have control over their own bodies and that means they should have _choice_, just as I’ve had and will continue to have. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/479 "2003-04-11T15:23:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Yeticus Rex** said: > vasectomy or sterilization sounds like a good option to keep yourselves happy. Why get pregnant and abort when that’s available? What if she gets a tubal ligation and he gets a vasectomy and it fails? It is possible, although extremely unlikely. > [@](#): > > But seriously, some people see it as a responsibility, others see it as a fitting punishment. I see it as a responsibility, please don’t confuse me with a “fitting punisher”. That being a matter of personal opinion, why do you think it’s OK for you to put on someone else what you view as ‘responsibility’ when they view it as ‘punishment’? Having kids has, as you stated, made you happy. But why would you force that on someone who would be made miserable by it? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145/480 "2003-04-11T23:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*The comatose patient, unless he is brain dead, will wake up. \*\*A fetus, if unmolested, will gain sentience. > [@](#): > > \*\* More importantly, he has a previously established identity of personhood. So a comotose patient, or anyone who is otherwise unconcious (such as asleep) still has a protected interest in life. \*\* What does “previously established identity of personhood” mean, exactly? Wait, don’t tell me. This is now one of my favorite phrases, and I don’t want you to ruin its mystery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-abortions/165145.md?page=25)