I think I’ve established my pro life credentials on the boards.
You don’t do the pro life viewpoint a favor by using language like that. It’s inflammatory, it’s inaccurate…and it does nothing to advance your point of view. I strongly suggest using a wiser vocabulary to make your point.
Thanks.
She really regrets that she had kids and talks quite a bit about the life she was supposed to have. It’s not a case of someone who’s going to commit murder, though, and I think that it’s more than a bit presumptive to make that kind of statement based only on her statement of regret.
She does love her kids, and it’s not like she said she wanted them to disappear tomorrow. All she said was that if she had her life to live over, to make the choices she made a long time ago again, she wouldn’t have had the kids.
I can understand where she’s coming from, because if I had a kid, I’m pretty sure I’d regret losing the life I really wanted to have.
Yeah. They can get abortions. Handles the consequences adroitly, if I do say so myself.
And once again, I’d like to see the reasoning behind said medical professionals’ decision.
Catsix,
Ever ask her what thing(s) she would have done after terminating the first child and then ask if doing that thing(s) was worth not knowing the first child for the rest of your life?
What about the second child, third, etc.?
I think she still needs counseling…the paradox is still there.
I felt the same way you guys did (I thought it would be a great inconvenience), but when you do have a kid (or heaven forbid, have lost a kid), you might really understand where I am coming from, there is so much to gain in having children.
Not everyone likes children. This seems quite obvious by inspection of the people around me.
She would not have gotten married and dropped out of college so she could’ve gone on to finish her Ph.D.
I know her pretty well, and really, I think she’d be happier if she were a Dr. right now.
Please don’t be so presumptive as to imply that everyone who doesn’t want children will change their minds if they have them. I for one see nothing to gain in having children, and everything to lose. There will be no ‘when’ I have a kid, because I would never put a kid through the hell of having a mother who resented it.
eris,
I don’t like dogs. In fact, I think they’re pretty awful. Loud, bouncing around all the time, smelling funky, & they shit where they feel like it. But you’ll never catch me killing one. Or thinking it’s ok to just for convenience sake.
This debate isn’t about whether you like children (got no problem with people who don’t; parenting is not for everybody!), just whether or not you think killing them should be banned.
Yeticus,
Agreed. My daughter was as accidental as they get. I can’t imagine a day going by without her though!
Robert,
Way the hell off topic & not at all analogous to the OP, but hey, I’ll bite…
Problem with your logic is that you are Robert, not the Government, and as such lack the legal or moral authority to do that, so no dice there. However, in discussing a ban on abortion, the Government does have legal authority to implement that when enough people ask for it, as sooner or later will be the case.
Besides, paying the obscene amount of taxes I do, I am sure that I already help starving foriegn children anyway. And if that doesn’t, the tithing I give my church is heavily percented to charities of various natures.
And lastly, my kidney would likely as not kill you. I have a rare blood type. However, I did donate my share of bone marrow this year. I’m also a regular blood & plasma donor as well. You? Ok then. I’d like to think I am pretty consisitant here.
And one last quick question. As long as we are being rediculous here, how many of you here who don’t mind butchering American Fetuses have a problem with us attacking legitimate enemies, like Iraqi Warriors and Dictators who don’t mind torturing their own respective populations? I ask only for consisitancy reasoning. I am hearing a lot about how we in the anti-child murder campaign are somehow in favour of things like the death penalty, etc… Just wanted to see how the other half thinks about all that…
Yup. Provided you don’t have a conscience. If you do have one however, it creates far more “consequences” than it solves.
He’s not being presumptive. A few years ago, when I was much more of a yuppie than I am now (hey kids aren’t free, lol), I would have agreed with you. Very much so in fact.
However, having kids does change you, for better or worse. I know there are people who would not be changed by such a miraculous event (That’s why we have adoption now. Not a pleasant option, but much better on the conscience than murder), but for most, it does. Feel free to disagree, but if you do, just keep in mind that you run the risk of sounding like Oprah Winfrey saying how easy the Normandy Invasion was. If you aint been there, how can you really know for sure?
I think that’s all he was trying to say.
Cheers
Ah, the old “you’ll understand when you’re older” fallacy.
Perhaps when you’ve had an unwanted pregnancy, you’ll understand where the pro-choicers are coming from; there’s so much to gain in having control over your own life. 
IEatFood!
There are thousands and thousands and thousands of animals at kill shelters that would love to hear that. And when I understand why comparing a common household pet to a fetus/baby is on the ball, and in what sense the comparison is supposed to hold, then we might make some progress here.
Sure, for someone who has already equated a fetus with a child. Not everyone agrees to that.
The human race will not stop having sex, I take this as so self-evident that I can’t even begin to imagine “abstinence” as a solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy (which, of course, is where abortions come in). We can take precautions to avoid getting pregnant from having sex. No precaution guarantees one doesn’t get pregnant. But we can guarantee one doesn’t have a child one doesn’t want. Seatbelts and airbags, only in a much different class of behavior.
I have second-hand anecdotal evidence (and we all know how far that goes lol) of a person who first had a child, then had an abortion, then went on to have another child. Obviously this woman knew whatever secret meaning is supposed to be revealed to life after having a child: proof is that she had another. But not everyone thinks of abortion as child killing. Proof of that is in the logical conjunction of abortions and laws against murdering born children.
So where are we then? Oh, I see.
Oh please.
Hmmm, you’d casually run me down and I’M a sociopath?
In addition to eating food, you might consider munching some thorazine, pal. In any event, you’re safe from me because I routinely make an effort not to run people over, despite how casual their relationship to logic or the English language.
Anyhoo, three seperate though related issues are being discussed and some people (well, JThunder, mostly) are mixing them up when it suits them. If I may, I’ll cite the these issues as:
A: A fetus is (or should be) the medical equivalent of a human being.
B: A fetus is (or should be) the legal equivalent of a human being.
C: Abortion should be banned.
As I understand it, JThunder is maintaining the because (he feels) A is true, B must be true, and since B is true, C must be true. The problem is that A, B and C are in fact quite distinctive and they do not automatically flow from each other. Conceding A or even B does not automatically gaurantee agreement with C, unless you’re already biased in favour of C and looking for ways to rationalize that belief.
However I feel about the humanity or legal status of a fetus, I can’t deny the humanity and legal status of the woman. I have no desire to force anyone to carry a child. I would consider such a desire, if formalized in law, to be a gross abuse of civil rights.
Of course killing children should be banned.
But a fetus is not a child.
Bryan, we are at an impasse. To me, it is undeniable that a fetus is a life. To you it’s not. That’s it really.
The sociapth thing came from your saying that if you did believe that a fetus was a life, you’d still think it’s ok to kill it. So, that in mind, where do you draw the line about when it is ok to kill for convenience sake? You seemed to have left that wide open is all.
As for medical vs legal, I don’t see your distinction. Alive is Alive, period. If you believe A (I know you don’t so you can save the strokes if you wish), why does B matter? Illegal Aliens aren’t legal citizens of this country and thusly aren’t entitled automatically to the rights we have. I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s ok to kill them at will, though.
We did have one. That was my point. Hence my belief the pregnancy being “unwanted” alone is not compelling enough reason to term it. I & my then SO got through it, & frankly it has been the least of our problems.
Also, I said nothing of being “older”, as I am only 24 myself, [;)]
mr2001,
I thought you were talking to me, you weren’t, my apologies. You may disregard my comment if you wish.
It is a fairly obvious one. Not everything you find immoral is illegal. Immorality does not imply illegality. I took some pains to try and demonstrate how the issues are truly seperate but that seems to have not gone over well. 
Of course, I ake for granted here that there both is a medical definition for life and that it is the basis for moral judgment in this case. Sorry if I only confused matters.
A fetus is life, I just wouldn’t call it a life, seperate and distinct from its mother and with civil rights of its own.
Well, if I’m a sociopath, then so is everyone who favours the death penalty, thinks war is occasionally necessary and believes people have a right to kill in self-defense. Each of these activities involves killing someone.
As for drawing a line for convenience sake, I’d say the fetusses are just outta luck. The women involved have rights over their own bodies, and I’m not about to take those rights away.
Then you should really do some basic legal reading.
Do some basic legal reading SOON if you have lots of mistaken beliefs like this one.
Neither do I.
Eris,
The thing with the dogs was in response to your saying not everyone likes children is all.
I stipulate that I do not like dogs. They are a lower life form than children (until contrary evidence arrives), and I would still have a problem killing them. Now imagine how one who sees it that way would feel about the prospect of killing what they know to be children. Does that clear it up?
As for this…
I personally have never advocated this as a solution. I think abstinence is a viable solution, but only for those willing to participate. I have never, and will never be against any form of Birth Control (With the stipulation that abortion is not BC.)
And yes there are methods that are nearly 100% effective. If you are a woman who wants no children, get an IUD. They have come a looooooooooooong way since the nightmarish contraptions of the 1970’s and are now reputed to be more effective, not to mention safer, than tubal ligation (not to mention far more reversable than the aforementioned procedure.) This also allows women to have more complete control over whether or not they become pregnant in the first place (And even the most ardent choicer will have to agree that this is medically prefferable to an abortion.)
Nice StrawMan there. And you know our views on the Death Penalty and War how?
Don’t even start with me there Bryan. I have a degree in that, and am working on a masters for it now, muwahahahahaha! And I know for a fact that Illegal Aliens DO NOT have the same rights and privilages of citizenry here in America. It may be different in Montreal, but that’s the way it is here.
Eris,
Hence the need for a Ban…
Don’t be sorry, it’s a debate [;)] I think that was the point of the OP. We already know what the law says. What we are discussing was the medical and moral aspects of it. Hence my reasoning that the legal status of fetus is essentially irrellevant here. I know there is a difference, just not why people think it’s important for a debate that doesn’t involve that difference (Unless you count the OP reasoning said legal status as inaccurate, but then we’ve already covered that.)
Which was in response to the implication that “something happens” when you have a kid.
That was never in any doubt. But I am unclear of what to do with it other than confirm what I already knew about why people who don’t approve of abortion don’t approve of abortion.
Of course.