If it involves killing another human being, then YES, you do need to justify those decisions.
It’s funny how abortion discussions seem always to follow certain set patterns, isn’t it?
Even after all these years, however, watching people wrangling over angels and pinheads remains a quite surreal experience when there seems, to me, to be only one real issue - “who controls my body?”
From the point of view of anti-choice, from the moment of having sex, control is taken away from me because there is a potential conception - in some, anti-choice defined, magical moment the die is cast and it’s time to stock up on the diapers.
For why? Because of the particular/peculiar moral/religious outlook of people of whom I know nothing and care less.
Now, I’m actually quite religious and I can’t say that I’d choose to have an abortion but what I’m damned determined about is that that choice should always be mine, determined by my outlook, derived from my interaction with my religious and ethical background, and not imposed on me by Christian extremists - Catholics, Religious Right, whatever - with their magical formulations about ‘life’.
Watching arguments such as these really does make me wonder whether anti-choice isn’t the last throw of people who see sex as being about control of women/punishment of women because, if from one magical moment 0.00068797 seconds (or whatever) from having had sex, you lose control over your own body and course of your own life, just what rights do you really have to anything?
**I don’t even understand this statement; I can’t at all determine if it follows logically from your assumptions (which I don’t agree with). Can you clarify? Be considered by whom? With respect to what, toward what end? Even if your assumptions are sound why couldn’t there be other pragmatic reasons to justify a ban on abortion?
Whether or not illegal abortions are inevitable, they are still a choice made by an adult, an adult who has the power to consider the implications of her decisions, including the risk of having an illegal abortion. The potential death of the mother is a function of her willingly assuming the risk of an abortion. You cannot say the same of the unborn child’s death. My pragmatic justification is that banning abortion will significantly reduce the volume of innocents dying. This is indisputable. Those who would seek illegal abortions would still have done so if abortions were legal. The math still pragmatically supports a ban.
**Pragmatic justifications for laws–by that do you mean there is some form of theoretical mathematical equation that shows why outlawing theft is valid, but banning abortion would not be? Again, what do you mean by pragmatic?
There is a long history of prohibition of abortions. Why is it so hard to grasp how this might work as a practical matter when it has already occurred? BTW, pointing out that illegal abortions took place prior to Roe v. Wade will not contradict this, any more than this year’s burglaries mean that there’s no meaningful reason to prohibit theft.
Yeah, yeah, I know, and it’s a valid nitpick, but Roe v. Wade serves as effective benchmark for discussions of this kind.
Besides, prior to 1973, even travelling from state to state could be a major hassle if you were poor or middle-class. The Interstate Highway System wasn’t completed until 1975.
If Roe v. Wade was tossed, some states would have to hastily decide to renew or ditch their pre-1973 laws. I expect a few of the more conservative states would pile on as many restrictions as they could, which will just result in OB/GYN physicians fleeing those states. The rate of abortions would drop, but so would women’s health care generally.
Laws don’t have to be renewed; if a Supreme Court ruling is overturned, the existing state statutes automatically go into effect. And the conservative states already had laws restricting abortion. See the hyperlink I provided above.
I’ve read through this entire thread, and, even though this is my first post, I feel I have to share something pertinent. Over twenty years ago, I had an abortion. I have never regretted anything more in my entire life. It may have been the correct decision (17 years old, addicted to cocaine, sexually abused by my adoptive father, living on the street, etc.), but I still feel the guilt, remorse, and shame for what I did twenty-odd years ago. Courts be damned, morals be damned, it was WRONG, and I’ll pay the price for the rest of my life. I pray for forgiveness often, but I can never forgive myself. Take it from someone who has been there, it is WRONG. Period.
And just to counteract the above personal anecdote:
And that would be your personal choice, Goo ; I envy you your ability to dismiss that event from your life. I don’t judge anyone for the choices they made - only myself.
Excuse me ? I’ve never had an abortion, thank you very much. There is no ‘event’ that I had to dismiss. I don’t judge others, either.
Your experience was yours, and yours alone. Others feel differently, which is why I added a link to a place where people could different experiences.
Since a fetus is not a human being, and since when it comes to my health, I don’t have to justify measures taken to preserve it, I’d say you’re flat out wrong that I have even one thing to justify to you.
You may not like it that way, but that’s the fact of the matter. I don’t have to justify any part of wanting an abortion to you or to anyone else. Nor will I ever have to.
I’ve been called a murderer for taking EC in the past because a bunch of holier-than-thou rabid pro-lifers believed that it was an abortifacient. I decided the day I took that EC that if it didn’t work, I’d abort. I had the doctor picked out already.
And it was the best decision I ever could’ve made. Not a single regret, not once, not even for a minute. My life could not have been what it is if I hadn’t done what I did.
Sorry, Goo, I misunderstood. I’m not really experienced with this site, and didn’t recognize the link - my apologies for my oversight.
Apology accepted 
Just a friendly comment, though. If you post that something is “wrong. Period”, don’t be surprised if people assume you are judging them and their choices. If you’ll be speaking about your experiences, it might be helpful to add “It was wrong for me. Period.” Personal anecdotes are fine, and often very illuminating, but as you can see (from my link) they do differ widely, and so can not be taken as ‘proof’ for either side of the argument.
And welcome to the board.
Do you really want us to trot out the medical cites again, catsix? There is a wealth of medical testimony out there which proclaims that the fetus IS a human being.
Thank you Goo, for your acceptance, and illumination. Take care.
I remember a pro-life commercial along these lines, featuring a woman narrating with a heavy tone of regret how her child would be 10 or whatever, and ending with a line similar to “If you think it doesn’t hurt, you’re wrong.” In other words, exactly the same as your experience.
Trouble is, I thought the message was ambiguous. The same text could have been directed at a pro-life audience along with “If you think women are having abortions frivolously, think again. It’s a hard moral choice with a chance of long-term regret, but it’s their choice to make.”
Anyway… because of your long-term regret, you wish you had not been offered the choice at all? Sounds like an abdication of responsibility rather than facing up to it. Just because you’re willing to have your own choice taken away, I see no reason why I should take your word for it that other women should be similarly treated. If anything, your position argues in favour of each individual woman making her own choice, and then living with that choice.
So these unnamed testifiers have a different definition of “human being” than catsix and me. So what?
I think there’s a difference between being a fetus and a human being.
A human being does not require an umbilical cord and another human being’s nutrition and blood and digestive system and lungs and excretory system to survive. A fetus does require those things, and the person whose uterus it is decides whether or not a fetus gets to be in there.
I am pro-abortion, however, here in North Carolina you are able to have an abortion up to 22 weeks. By that time, the baby is basically “alive”. It’s developing eyelashes, fingernails, even it’s lungs are starting to develop. I would just boot that “up to 22 weeks” part.
These “unnamed testifiers,” as you call them, are medical and scientific authorities on the subject. We have posted these cites many times before, and so I’m sure that you’re familiar with them by now. To ask “So what?” is to gravely miss the point.
Here is a sample of the medical testimonies that were offered to a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee in 1981. There are just your regular Joe-Schmoes offering their opinions, mind you. Rather, these are knowledgeable experts in their fields, who were specifically invited to testify as to when human life begins.
Note that not a single one of these experts said that a fetus is not a human being. None of them even hinted at such.
Cite? Do you have any medical references to back up that definition of yours?
I think you are unqualified to have an opinion. Have you been there? I do not have knowledge of some crappy liberal commercial that you may or may not have viewed out in Quebec.
"Trouble is, I thought the message was ambiguous. "
Do I care how you interpreted something that was clear and simple?
" Sounds like an abdication of responsibility rather than facing up to it. "
I take responsibililty for my decision everyday, unlike you who just beaks off about something you can NEVER understand. I REGRET what I did, and it was wrong for me. I will NOT judge others for what they do.