# Ban on pit bulls **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 1, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988 "2004-10-01T03:46:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/141 "2004-10-14T15:02:55Z")
Thus banning the weapons will be helpful in reducing the damage caused. Will it eliminate the dangerous dog attacks? No. But it will reduce the frequency and the degree of damage. ---
**Author:** ![Gulo\_gulo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@Gulo\_gulo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gulo_gulo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/142 "2004-10-14T18:54:58Z")
It’s not pitbulls but an interesting article on a pack of German Shorthair Pointers in NYC and the locals’ inability to get anything done about them. [When Pets Attack](http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/pets_animals/features/9986/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/143 "2004-10-14T19:16:28Z")
> [@Gulo gulo](#): > > It’s not pitbulls but an interesting article on a pack of German Shorthair Pointers in NYC and the locals’ inability to get anything done about them. > > [When Pets Attack](http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/pets_animals/features/9986/index.html) Out in the country, they would be shot. Dog packs are a clear hazard to livestock, other animals, and humans. Unfortunately, the NYPD would probably take a dim view of a citizen solving the problem for them. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/144 "2004-10-14T19:53:33Z")
> [@Gulo gulo](#): > > It’s not pitbulls but an interesting article on a pack of German Shorthair Pointers in NYC and the locals’ inability to get anything done about them. > > [When Pets Attack](http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/pets_animals/features/9986/index.html) That article made my stomach turn. I would be inclined to feed the dogs poison through the fence. This would never happen here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/145 "2004-10-14T21:14:22Z")
When it comes to packs, any breed is subject to bloodthirst. I’ll never forget the time a pack of approximately 20 dogs attempted to take me down at two in the morning. I was maybe 100 yards away from the door that I had just left. In order to defend myself, I charged the pack. They backed off but some of them went around to behind me to close in on my Achilles tendon. (that’s what it sure seemed like). I escaped by charging 3 steps away from the door I just left and 4 steps toward the door. Dog packs are killing machines , and I swear I’d seen some of these dogs before in the daytime, only in individual circumstances. Keep in mind I was in a northern Ontario community which did not have any leash laws. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/146 "2004-10-14T22:39:02Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > When it comes to packs, any breed is subject to bloodthirst. > > I’ll never forget the time a pack of approximately 20 dogs attempted to take me down at two in the morning. I was maybe 100 yards away from the door that I had just left. In order to defend myself, I charged the pack. They backed off but some of them went around to behind me to close in on my Achilles tendon. (that’s what it sure seemed like). I escaped by charging 3 steps away from the door I just left and 4 steps toward the door. Dog packs are killing machines , and I swear I’d seen some of these dogs before in the daytime, only in individual circumstances. Keep in mind I was in a northern Ontario community which did not have any leash laws. That is truly chilling. ---
**Author:** ![DemonSpawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@DemonSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonSpawn)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/147 "2004-10-15T14:15:49Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Thus banning the weapons will be helpful in reducing the damage caused. Will it eliminate the dangerous dog attacks? No. But it will reduce the frequency and the degree of damage. I feel uncomfortable with this analogy, as I am not in favour of firearm ownership. The point is: the damage is being caused by the owners of the “weapons”, so banning a certain kind of “weapon” won’t help, because the owners will probably just get another kind. To take your analogy further, educating the owners about safekeeping and proper use of these “weapons” will do more to reduce the number of attacks. Also we need to create a society in which a person unwilling to take proper care of his “weapon”, learn about how it works and what it needs to function properly, can not get such a “weapon”, no matter what kind. To get back to clear speech: banning breed A does not help, to avoid dog attacks 100% you would have to ban all dogs. Something else to consider: how many of the “attacks” that are so prominent in the news (especially when there’s not much else to report) are really attacks? How many of these incidents are actually accidents, caused by a lively large dog jumping at a stranger, wanting to say hi and making him fall?\* How many of these incidents happen because people just act stupid around dogs (teasing them, taking away bone of strange dog, windmilling with your arms when you feel threatened etc.)? It’s not as if Germany before the ban was full of packs of Pitbulls trying to rip your throat out. There is a certain “clientele” that likes to keep aggressive fighting dogs and show them off (some pimps, bouncers, mafiosi-types etc.). Now it’s harder, illegal and more expensive for them to keep pitbulls. You tell me how much of a deterrent that will be to those types. They simply ignore the ban or get a Rottweiler, German Shepherd, whatever. - not that I condone lazy dog owners who do not try hard enough to make sure this never happens! ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/148 "2004-10-15T15:23:43Z")
[Ontario unveils plans to ban pit bulls](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041015.wxpitbull15/BNStory/National/) > [@today's Globe and Mail](#): > > The Ontario government announced Friday that it plans to introduce legislation to ban pit bulls in the province. The legislation is expected to allow present owners of pit bulls to keep them, and is expected to include stiff fines and jail sentences for all irresponsible dog owners. Argh ! ---
**Author:** ![Gulo\_gulo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@Gulo\_gulo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gulo_gulo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/149 "2004-10-15T18:37:55Z")
[NAIA holds dangerous dog conference in Cincinnati, November 6-7, 2004](http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/dangerousdogconfnov.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/150 "2004-10-16T03:01:36Z")
> [@EvilGhandi](#): > > BARON IS THE EXCEPTION. Sure if he got into the wrong hands, he could be a monster. He’s in the wrong hands now. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/151 "2004-10-17T19:53:18Z")
> [@DemonSpawn](#): > > I feel uncomfortable with this analogy, as I am not in favour of firearm ownership. > > The point is: the damage is being caused by the owners of the “weapons”, so banning a certain kind of “weapon” won’t help, because the owners will probably just get another kind. > > To take your analogy further, educating the owners about safekeeping and proper use of these “weapons” will do more to reduce the number of attacks. > > Also we need to create a society in which a person unwilling to take proper care of his “weapon”, learn about how it works and what it needs to function properly, can not get such a “weapon”, no matter what kind. This arguement is a standard for pro gun lobbyists, and in my opinion makes a great deal of sense. However, we can’t control people and their access to weapons (including dogs), but we can remove the weapons. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/152 "2004-10-18T00:15:28Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > [Ontario unveils plans to ban pit bulls](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041015.wxpitbull15/BNStory/National/) > > Argh ! Don’t hold your breath. We are, after all, talking about the Ontario government. Knowing the alacrity, honesty, and skill with which they do most things, we can expect the chinchilla ban to be in place by early 2073. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/153 "2004-10-18T10:06:38Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > This arguement is a standard for pro gun lobbyists, and in my opinion makes a great deal of sense. However, we can’t control people and their access to weapons (including dogs), but we can remove the weapons. Well, then you might as well just ban every single dog over 40 pounds. ANY dog can kill. ANY dog can be taught to be aggressive, either by inaction through lack of socialization and training, or by abusing the animal until it’s mean. What you pro-breed specific law people are not getting, is that it _does not matter_ if you ban pit bulls. It doesn’t matter if you ban Rottweilers, it doesn’t matter if you ban Dobies. [http://www.rottclub.ca/bsl\_article.html](http://www.rottclub.ca/bsl_article.html) > [@](#): > > Among the few serious data available is that of 2002 Report of Canadian Hospitals Injury Reporting and Prevention Program. The fatalities could be attributed to the following breeds in order of decreasing incidence: Labradors, Staffordshire bull terrier, German Shepherds, Bull terriers, Rottweiler, pit bull. What!!??? Mister nice guy himself, the Labrador, is on the top of the list. It totally makes sense as Labrador figures as number one family dog. Now, if we look at dog bites in accordance to prevalence of occurrence: German Shepherd, Cocker Spaniel, Rottweiler and Golden Retriever. Again, popular family dog such as cocker spaniel and golden retriever makes the top five. > > What we must observe is that dog bites and fatalities is more a reflection of the breed popularity than its propensity to bite. According to another report published in 1989 in the Journal of American Medical Association, over 66% of all dog related deaths are attributed to more media friendly type dogs such as the Labrador and cocker spaniel, while the other 1/3 are the pit bull, pit bull mixes, Rottweilers and Shepherd, the group more commonly portrayed in the media as “dangerous dogs” and most often banned. > > In fact, as stated by the Center for Disease Control: "American and Canadian Veterinarian Medical Associations, Humane Societies all presently studying the problem of dog bites, acknowledges that no breed has a propensity to bite humans more so than others, that in almost all instances of bites, it is the owner at fault be it by neglect, purposeful training towards aggression, breeding to supply the demand for bigger macho dogs with attitudes by back yard breeders, inexperienced dog owners. " All of the present data can be manipulated to support a desired point of view. > > The fact is that no breed has been identified scientifically to be more predisposed to being dangerous than any other. According to Dr. Porter, “At this point in time, to the best of my knowledge, there is no scientific proof that any breed of dog is inherently more aggressive or vicious than any other breed. I believe that socialization and training are the most important factors in producing the final temperament of an individual dog” > > In fact, according to behavior testing performed by the American Temperament Testing Association, the Rottweiler and the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier scored as high or higher than the dogs the public consider to be family oriented, “safe” dogs. You going to ban labs too? How about Cocker Spaniels…Goldens? They should go too, then, I guess. Do you get it yet? THE ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/154 "2004-10-18T10:30:04Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > This arguement is a standard for pro gun lobbyists, and in my opinion makes a great deal of sense. However, we can’t control people and their access to weapons (including dogs), but we can remove the weapons. What you pro-breed specific law people are not getting, is that _it does not matter if you ban pit bulls, Rottweilers, or even Dobies or Germans_. The people who own the dogs you are so fucking afraid of, will just get another fucking kind of big dog, and train it to be an aggressive, dangerous animal. [http://www.rottclub.ca/bsl\_article.html](http://www.rottclub.ca/bsl_article.html) > [@](#): > > Welcome to our town!!! Young couples finally buying their first house, retirees with a lifetime of wandering the neighborhood streets, you will not be spared. Yours truly, your friendly animal control agent, will knock at your door, today or tomorrow, on the whim of your elected officials, and drag your faithful and loving companion to be put down without trial. You now live in a place where you pay your taxes but where your dog is not welcomed anymore. We don’t care if it has earned multiple titles, if it saved your life at some point, if it served the community as a search and rescue volunteer or, most importantly, if you consider it a member of your family. We give you the trouble of explaining to your kids why Buster must die. > > Buster’s crime to begin with was simply being born the wrong breed, and on one of the long and increasing lists of working dogs which have been stamped, due to media frenzy, as dangerous. If you thought that only pit bulls were concerned, the following list should shatter your illusions: American Staffordshire Terrier, Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, Neapolitan Mastiff, Spanish Mastiff, Dogue de Bordeaux, Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasileiro, Roman Fighting Dog, Chinese Fighting Dog, Bandog, Tosa Inu, Akbash, Briard, Beauceron, Bullmastiff, Chow Chows, Dalmations, Doberman, Komondor, Kuvasz, Maremma, Great Pyrenees, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Rottweiler, Tibetan Mastiff. > > -snip- > > Among the few serious data available is that of 2002 Report of Canadian Hospitals Injury Reporting and Prevention Program. The fatalities could be attributed to the following breeds in order of decreasing incidence: Labradors, Staffordshire bull terrier, German Shepherds, Bull terriers, Rottweiler, pit bull. \*\*What!!??? Mister nice guy himself, the Labrador, is on the top of the list. It totally makes sense as Labrador figures as number one family dog. Now, if we look at dog bites in accordance to prevalence of occurrence: German Shepherd, Cocker Spaniel, Rottweiler and Golden Retriever. Again, popular family dog such as cocker spaniel and golden retriever makes the top five. \*\* > > What we must observe is that dog bites and fatalities is more a reflection of the breed popularity than its propensity to bite. **According to another report published in 1989 in the Journal of American Medical Association, over 66% of all dog related deaths are attributed to more media friendly type dogs such as the Labrador and cocker spaniel, while the other 1/3 are the pit bull, pit bull mixes, Rottweilers and Shepherd, the group more commonly portrayed in the media as “dangerous dogs” and most often banned.** > > In fact, as stated by the Center for Disease Control: "American and Canadian Veterinarian Medical Associations, Humane Societies all presently studying the problem of dog bites, acknowledges that no breed has a propensity to bite humans more so than others, that in almost all instances of bites, it is the owner at fault be it by neglect, purposeful training towards aggression, breeding to supply the demand for bigger macho dogs with attitudes by back yard breeders, inexperienced dog owners. " All of the present data can be manipulated to support a desired point of view. > > The fact is that no breed has been identified scientifically to be more predisposed to being dangerous than any other. According to Dr. Porter, “At this point in time, to the best of my knowledge, there is no scientific proof that any breed of dog is inherently more aggressive or vicious than any other breed. I believe that socialization and training are the most important factors in producing the final temperament of an individual dog” > > In fact, according to behavior testing performed by the American Temperament Testing Association, the Rottweiler and the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier scored as high or higher than the dogs the public consider to be family oriented, “safe” dogs. Do you get it yet? Or do you want to ban Golden Retrivers, Labradors and Cocker Spaniels too? Hey, fuck it, let’s just ban every dog over 30 pounds…that ought to work! Well, let’s see what the CDC has to say about it. [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm) > [@](#): > > Three categories of strategies can be considered for preventing dog bites: > > Owner and public education. Dog owners, through proper selection, socialization, training, care, and treatment of a dog, can reduce the likelihood of owning a dog that will eventually bite (7). Male and unspayed/unneutered dogs are more likely to bite than are female and spayed/neutered dogs (7). Educational and prevention efforts should be directed at parents and children. Veterinarians and pediatricians should address strategies for bite prevention, including the need for appropriate supervision of children. Other strategies include dissemination of information on preventing bites (see box(Table\_B1)), school-based educational programs on bite prevention and canine behavior, and educational programs regarding responsible dog selection, ownership, and training. > > Animal control at the community level. Animal-control programs should be supported, and laws for regulating dangerous or vicious dogs should be promulgated and enforced vigorously (8).\*\* For example, in this report, 30% of DBRFs resulted from groups of owned dogs that were free roaming off the owner’s property. Some of these deaths might have been prevented through more stringent animal-control laws and enforcement. Although some breeds were disproportionately represented in the fatal attacks described in this report, the representation of breeds changes over time (Table\_1). As a result, targeting a specific breed may be unproductive; a more effective approach may be to target chronically irresponsible dog owners (9). \*\* > > Bite reporting. Evaluation of prevention efforts requires improved surveillance for dog bites. Dog bites should be reported as required by local or state ordinances, and reports of such incidents should include information about the circumstances of the bite; ownership, breed, sex, age, spay/neuter status, and history of prior aggression of the animal; and the nature of restraint before the bite incident. > > Dogs provide many health and social benefits (10). Most of the approximately 55 million dogs in the United States never bite or kill humans. However, the findings in this report indicate that DBRFs continue to occur and that most are preventable. So the CDC doesn’t think breed specific laws work…they want to target chronically irresponsible dog owners, instead of penalizing the hundreds of thousands of Pit Bull and Rottweiler (and Dobie, and German, and Chow, and Mastiff, and Great Pyr…etc etc) owners who ARE responsible for their animals, and whose animals bring joy to others lives, not pain. What a concept. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/155 "2004-10-18T10:31:41Z")
Er, sorry, not sure how the double post happened… =( ---
**Author:** ![Gulo\_gulo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@Gulo\_gulo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gulo_gulo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/156 "2004-10-20T00:09:18Z")
For anyone in the Toronto area who wishes to protest the proposed pitbull ban, there will be a demonstration at Queen’s Park. Information can be obtained [here](http://www.goodpooch.com/home.htm). (This info was posted on my Doberman list and I know nothing more on the protest.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/157 "2004-10-20T02:31:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _bolded section of **Cerri’s** quote_: > According to another report published in 1989 in the Journal of American Medical Association, over 66% of all dog related deaths are attributed to more media friendly type dogs such as the Labrador and cocker spaniel, while the other 1/3 are the pit bull, pit bull mixes, Rottweilers and Shepherd, the group more commonly portrayed in the media as “dangerous dogs” and most often banned. So just to be clear you, **Cerri** , believe that this overrepresentation of “so called” dangerous dogs in death statistics relative to their proportion of the dog population is purely attributable to a conglomeration of “bad owners” around these breeds? Also you believe that the tradition/history of breeding working dogs for temperment/personality is complete bunko? Honest question… ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/158 "2004-10-21T22:37:24Z")
IANCerri, but I’ve finally managed to read through all of the thread and found that Cerri and blackhobyah, among several others, have already made most of the points I’d raise. However, I’ll take up your questions since no one else has. First, please read that quote again…it says that only 1/3 of the dog-related deaths are attributable to the “dangerous dogs”. In other words, banning those breeds won’t even stop the majority of attacks. The only way to stop all dog attacks is to ban all dogs. I would say that the overrepresentation (i.e., 1/3 of deaths attributed to only a few breeds) comes from a number of factors, most of which have been previously discussed, but yes, most of those factors are owner-related. Please note that I did NOT say “purely attributable” - there ain’t no such thing, except sometimes maybe in the lab. One major factor already discussed is the fact that many dog attacks are mis-attributed to “dangerous” breeds, particularly when it comes to cross-breeds. There are many breeds of dogs that will produce the square head and blocky body that, especially in a crossbreed, almost immediately gets called “pitbull”. SharPeis, for instance, will produce a very pitbull-looking cross, and SharPeis can be quite aggressive; they were also extremely popular for a while, so there’s a fair number of SharPei crosses running around. There’s also the problem I noted above, where even when the breed is known to be something else, a dog attack is attributed to a pitbull (or Rottie, or Dobie, or German Shepherd, or whatever else is the “dangerous dog” of the moment). And when popular news coverage (or local gossip) is your source, there’s the fact that anything from an over-exuberant puppy startling a shy child to a well-deserved warning growl to an unprovoked mauling is called a “dog attack”. A very major factor is the popularity of the breed. Any breed that becomes extremely popular almost immediately begins to have problems - health problems, congenital ailments, temperament problems, etc. - simply due to ignorance and greed. Greed causes poor breeding and poor care because, as with most things, it’s much cheaper to do something badly than to do it well. Ignorance causes people to purchase dogs that are not remotely suitable, and then to fail to properly train and handle them. This becomes even worse when the breed popularity is based upon that breed’s status as a “guard dog”, “attack dog”, or anything similar. That simply attracts people who breed for mean, aggressive, easily-provoked dogs, and idiots who intentionally purchase such dogs and then mistreat them to encourage those traits. Popularity of a dog breed also ensures that there will be many of that type of dog causing problems, just because there are more of them, and because popular breeds are often owned by poor dog owners - dogs running loose because their owners think it’s “more natural” or “OK because he’s a just a sweetie”, dogs running loose because the owners can’t be bothered to walk them or fix the fence, dogs running loose because they’ve been dumped after they: grew up/got sick/misbehaved due to lack of training and attention/are no longer “in”; lots of puppies because the owners can’t be bothered to or “don’t believe in” neutering, because little Joey has to see the “miracle of birth”, because their dog is just _so special_ that they just _have_ to breed it, or because they think dog-breeding is an easy buck and have not the first clue what they’re doing, etc., etc., etc., etc. That’s without even starting on the real assholes who buy dogs as penis-extensions or weapons. Another major factor, and one that I believe heavily skews the statistics, is the lack of enforcement against bad owners. I actually read all of the articles linked in this thread. Many of them mentioned situations in which there were repeated complaints about specific dogs, complaints which were ignored, whether due to legal loopholes or apathy on the part of local officials. I know that we had such a problem in our neighborhood - when I called animal control because a new neighbor’s Lab/Golden cross, who was turned loose anytime the man was home, repeatedly went after other dogs and people, including following delivery men onto _our_ porch, I was told that animal control couldn’t do anything unless he bit someone. When I called to report that he had, indeed, finally bitten a woman, they wouldn’t take the report from me - I had to bring her in and put her on the phone. The only reason the jerk didn’t get his dog back was because he didn’t have/want to spend the money to pay the quarantine fee and fines - in fact, he tried to claim that we should get his dog out, because it was our fault it got picked up. When one owner and/or one dog repeatedly causes problems and yet nothing is done, it not only mucks your statistics (e.g., ten pitbull attacks doesn’t mean attacks by ten dogs out of the population of fifty, but rather ten attacks by two dogs out of fifty), it encourages similar poor behavior from other assholes who own dogs. Considering that said assholes are highly prone to have the popular, “dangerous” breeds (as previously discussed), then you get a heavy weighting of problems from those dogs. I think the stats are also skewed because most people don’t report bites from small dogs, whether because they don’t require medical attention, or because it just plain sounds so silly to say you’ve been mauled by a Chihuahua. However, every person I’ve known that worked in dog-related areas (breeding, veterinary, etc.) agrees that the small, inbred lapdogs are by far the most vicious and most prone to attack. These dogs can be quite dangerous, even so - any number of children are badly bitten by small dogs. In fact, I know of a pitbull that was killed by several fox terriers. However, what almost all of these boil down to is, indeed, bad owners. So I would have to agree that the overrepresentation of certain breeds is _primarily_, although not purely, attributable to bad owners. Bad owners make bad dogs. I do believe that dogs have been and can be bred for temperament. Most reputable breeders not only breed for temperament, they temperament-test their puppies before placing them. However, such breeding only breeds for _tendencies_. I can breed the two sweetest-natured dogs in the world, and still end up with a puppy that is shy and fear-bites, or is overly aggressive and easily provoked. However, either of those puppies can be perfectly good dogs, if properly trained and socialized. Unfortunately, most people haven’t the foggiest idea what that means, much less how to do it. I can also breed the two meanest, nastiest, most psychotic dogs in the world, and still end up with a quiet, pleasant, friendly puppy. Dog-fighters call those “culls”. And I can take the friendliest, nicest puppy in the world and turn him into a mean, vicious dog with poor treatment and abuse. IME, the most common problem is often not aggressive dogs per se, but assertive, dominant dogs. Most people don’t know how to deal with a dog who’s just determined to be alpha, and those dogs are often mishandled. They can be quite dangerous because they believe (rightfully so, from their perspective) that they are in charge and anything they do is OK - and OK in dog-world includes biting/attacking all lesser beings, unless said lesser beings behave properly and show submission. You get assertive dogs in _all_ breeds (it’s definitely part of the natural range of “dog personalities”), they’re just not as scary running amok when they’re only ten pounds. However, some breeds definitely tend more towards assertiveness, especially the working breeds of all sizes - it’s part of what makes them good at their jobs. But that brings us back to what others have already said: if you ban pitbulls, it will just be a different breed very soon. Hell, it will be a different breed before too long anyway, just because these things are fads. When I was very small, it was German Shepherds, and everyone was terrified of our “police dog”. When I was a bit older, it changed to Dobermans, and I watched a neighbor’s perfectly nice, friendly, sweet Dobie turn (apparently) mean and vicious due to the constant torment by kids daring each other to tease and harass the “dangerous dog”. (I say “apparently” because he was still perfectly nice if he knew you, or if you came in through the house like a civilized being. He just had absolutely no patience or goodwill towards kids outside his fence, and would bark and growl and charge when someone walked by.) When I was in my teens & early twenties, it was Rottweilers, and again I watched people snatch their children up and away from the horrendous [Evil Roy Slade](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305837562/103-7003233-0331802?v=glance), my future sister-in-law’s baby, who was probably the most poorly behaved of the dogs I knew, simply because he was spoiled completely rotten. His name, however, was entirely apropos. And then it became the pitbulls. The only purebred pitbulls I’ve known were through my spouse’s employment as a vet tech in a bad part of town - they saw a lot of pitbulls. Even so, most of them were not people-aggressive, although they did tend to fight other dogs when they weren’t socialized early and well; I’ve known quite a few pit-crosses, and they have much the same problem. I’ve been surprised that one of the mastiff breeds hadn’t taken the top spot by now, although it sounds like it’s heading that direction. Soon, none of y’all will be worried about pitbulls, you’ll be screaming for mastiff bans instead. It doesn’t matter what breeds you ban, another one will come along - there are hundreds of “aggressive”, working-dog breeds. If one didn’t exist, they’d create it, or breed aggressive behavior into an existing type, so that assholes can have scary dogs. If you ban all large dogs, they’ll select 'em for just under the limit. If a breed becomes popular, ignorant and uncaring people will buy the dogs and mis-handle them. As keeps being repeated, and is supported by several of the cites contained in this thread - banning breeds is not a workable nor useful solution. What can be done? Well, that’s a whole 'nother topic, and I’ve already written quite the epic screed here. Real enforcement of existing nuisance/dangerous animal laws, possibly with new laws in some places to close loopholes, that would be a good start. I wouldn’t be averse to stronger licensing/training requirements, although those won’t work unless you (a)have them written by people that understand dogs, not local bigmouth Joe Blow, and (b)actually enforce them. The real solution is a major change in culture, but that’s so far away as to be meaningless. Perhaps at least we could achieve a society less-tolerant of animal abuse and mistreatment in the near future, and one that acknowledges, however faintly, that animals are not toys. My personal crusade would be against the breed associations such as the AKC - they could shut down the puppy mills if they wanted to, but they’re too greedy to do it; they’d rather just wring their hands and moan about how evil “those” people are. {I can expand on that last for at least as long as I’ve already gone on, but I’ll resist. :)) My word, this got longer (and took longer!) than I intended. Ciao! ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/159 "2004-10-22T01:45:53Z")
Hi Red, thanks for joining in - all great points - did you not read from the beginning and see that all these points had already been made? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988/160 "2004-10-22T02:24:08Z")
> [@](#): > > What can be done? Well, that’s a whole 'nother topic, and I’ve already written quite the epic screed here. Not to be a dink but “What can be done?” is pretty much THE topic of the thread. My point about over-representation of dangerous dogs relative to their kill statistics is that banning a dog owned by \<10% of the dog owning population would immediately affect (not eliminate I’m sure) ~30% of dog caused fatalities. Is it so ridiculous to try it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-pit-bulls/266988.md?page=9)