# Ban on transgenders in military **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 26, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156 "2017-07-26T13:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/41 "2017-07-27T20:57:14Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > And once again all miss the point. > > I do not think I can change anything but I do note that some want to be able to be totally out and all the other soldiers must accept them and allow them to try? How long have the US people been working on segregation? How is that going for you? The laws accomplish it? > > And many thousands of soldiers much less the general public have religious beliefs that you want wiped out this month. How do you plan on doing this, with a law? Bawahahahaha > > Yes, it sucks to be you, it sucks to be handicapped, it sucks if you are a lot of things, it really isn’t fair. So what is your plan to make it fair? > > Those that did not read about my age, where I come from and my disclaimer and just start jerking their jaw into their face are the very ones who will get you killed on the battle field. Note, I said nothing about non combat positions. > > Their are female combat pilots that are very good. > > They can not pass the buck, pilots don’t get to say that it is someone else’s fault. Right or wrong but right now. I have over 10,000 hrs as PIC so I am sure you will say that I do not know what I am talking about. _snerk_ > > Why don’t they go public and join you all? > > Quit wasting your time as someone suggested about talking to me. > > A little side bet, when this all come to nothing, not a one of you will say you were wrong to go super nova about. > > Never seen it on a message board when it is about opinions their ‘hot button’ issues and/or judgement calls. Some scientific types won’t admit they were wrong no matter the proof. > > I may drop by to see how this goes in the thread but I better not post, that would be silly of me and I try not to do that. What are you even talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/42 "2017-07-27T22:13:31Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > And once again all miss the point. > > I do not think I can change anything but I do note that some want to be able to be totally out and all the other soldiers must accept them and allow them to try? How long have the US people been working on segregation? How is that going for you? The laws accomplish it? > > And many thousands of soldiers much less the general public have religious beliefs that you want wiped out this month. How do you plan on doing this, with a law? Bawahahahaha > > Yes, it sucks to be you, it sucks to be handicapped, it sucks if you are a lot of things, it really isn’t fair. So what is your plan to make it fair? > > Those that did not read about my age, where I come from and my disclaimer and just start jerking their jaw into their face are the very ones who will get you killed on the battle field. Note, I said nothing about non combat positions. > > Their are female combat pilots that are very good. > > They can not pass the buck, pilots don’t get to say that it is someone else’s fault. Right or wrong but right now. I have over 10,000 hrs as PIC so I am sure you will say that I do not know what I am talking about. _snerk_ > > Why don’t they go public and join you all? > > Quit wasting your time as someone suggested about talking to me. > > A little side bet, when this all come to nothing, not a one of you will say you were wrong to go super nova about. > > Never seen it on a message board when it is about opinions their ‘hot button’ issues and/or judgement calls. Some scientific types won’t admit they were wrong no matter the proof. > > I may drop by to see how this goes in the thread but I better not post, that would be silly of me and I try not to do that. I guess I should nominate you for [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=828147). Seriously, wut? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/43 "2017-07-27T22:17:45Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > … I have over 10,000 hrs as PIC so I am sure you will say that I do not know what I am talking about. _snerk_… No, I’m sure you know what you are talking about. But the problem is none of \*us \*know what you are talking about. Would you rather have an open and honest person to have your back, or one that was lying to you? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/44 "2017-07-27T22:23:18Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > And once again all miss the point. The point is pretty simply. Some of your fellow soldiers are being screwed. You can choose to stand by them, or you can choose to sit on the sidelines and fire off baseless “concerns” over their fitness to serve. You chose the later. Okay, that’s your choice to make. Just own it, and don’t try to paint the people who are supporting _all_ our troops as disloyal or disrespectful to the military. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/45 "2017-07-27T23:32:19Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > What are you even talking about? I’m guessing the subject is “beer.” Or, the Festivus Airing of Grievances has come early this year. ---
**Author:** ![JHBoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/13edae/32.png) [@JHBoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JHBoom)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/46 "2017-07-27T23:59:53Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > Can anyone in the military just request surgery (of any kind) and have that request granted? No. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/47 "2017-07-28T00:59:01Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Question, how will he know who is transgender? Can’t your employer access your medical records if they pay for at least part of your insurance? If they can, being on a cocktail of hormones would be one way for them to identify folks. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/48 "2017-07-28T02:34:46Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Can’t your employer access your medical records if they pay for at least part of your insurance? I don’t think so. [HHS web site](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/employers-health-information-workplace/index.html) says: > [@](#): > > Your employer can ask **you** for a doctor’s note or other health information if they need the information for sick leave, workers’ compensation, wellness programs, or health insurance. > > However, if your employer asks your health care provider directly for information about you, your provider cannot give your employer the information without your authorization unless other laws require them to do so. (bolding mine) Though I admit I don’t know what those “other laws” might be. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/49 "2017-07-28T03:43:04Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > And once again all miss the point. Can’t hit fog. > [@](#): > > I do not think I can change anything but I do note that some want to be able to be totally out and all the other soldiers must accept them and allow them to try? How long have the US people been working on segregation? How is that going for you? The laws accomplish it? Yes, the laws helped quite a bit, and saying otherwise is lying. > [@](#): > > And many thousands of soldiers much less the general public have religious beliefs that you want wiped out this month. How do you plan on doing this, with a law? Bawahahahaha Hey, the people with those beliefs can suck it up and act like members of an armed service, as opposed to people in a social club. That _is_ what we’re running, right? An armed service? I mean, I know it’s a fully-socialized welfare force, marching on the dole, but we at least _try_ to keep it combat-ready, don’t we? So who cares what the grunts think about trans people in the ranks? Are we going to politely ask their opinion of the colors of the barracks next? Are we going to politely request their considered essays on the merits of PT and uniform regulations? When did anyone start caring what people in the ranks, living on government funds and government food, thought of anything? If they want to have opinions, they can go out and make their own way in the world, and earn something. > [@](#): > > Those that did not read about my age, where I come from and my disclaimer and just start jerking their jaw into their face are the very ones who will get you killed on the battle field. Note, I said nothing about non combat positions. Yes, the whiners get you killed, I’m sure. Therefore, anyone who whines about serving next to a trans person can report to the disciplinary barracks. Hey, nobody said life was fair. > [@](#): > > I have over 10,000 hrs as PIC And I have twice that as ARM, and even more as MIPS. I’ve been embedded in lots of places. ---
**Author:** ![JHBoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/13edae/32.png) [@JHBoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JHBoom)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/50 "2017-07-28T20:18:03Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Can’t your employer access your medical records if they pay for at least part of your insurance? If they can, being on a cocktail of hormones would be one way for them to identify folks. > [@scr4](#): > > I don’t think so. [HHS web site](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/employers-health-information-workplace/index.html) says: > > > [@](#): > > > > Your employer can ask you for a doctor’s note or other health information if they need the information for sick leave, workers’ compensation, wellness programs, or health insurance. > > > > However, if your employer asks your health care provider directly for information about you, your provider cannot give your employer the information without your authorization unless other laws require them to do so. > > Though I admit I don’t know what those “other laws” might be. US military component commanders (the job title, not the Naval rank) have the legal right to get medical information about servicemembers under their command. It’s not something that is done on a whim, since the request requires justification and a legal review, but it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/51 "2017-07-28T21:08:00Z")
When I was contemplating enlisting (a couple of decades ago), I was told that I needed to get my allergy shots down to once a month or less, so as not to strain the logistics if i should be deployed at the end of a thousand-mile-long supply line. When people are on hormone treatments, how often do they need to get the treatments? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/52 "2017-07-28T21:15:17Z")
It’s not an issue of military readiness, high end estimates of the number of transgender people in the US military, active and reserve, are about [15,000](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-26/here-s-how-many-trans-people-serve-in-the-u-s-military)- out of a total headcount of about [2 million](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces) (.0075%). Their health expenses would make up about .1% of the armed services health care expenses. All of that amounts to a rounding error. I don’t have any issue with someone who had previous reassignment surgery joining the military. It does seem wrong, though, to offer joining the military as a means of getting reassignment surgery that one may not be able to afford on their own. It wouldn’t seem to benefit the military in any way (while other “elective” surgeries like vision correction may) and it wouldn’t be possible in a private sector job without substantial amounts of out-of-pocket expense and earned or unpaid time off. Perhaps a policy of X years of service before becoming eligible would work. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/53 "2017-07-28T23:05:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you’re against women serving as well? All because men are terrible, apparently, and can’t prevent themselves from raping willy-nilly? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you’re against women serving as well? All because men are terrible, apparently, and can’t prevent themselves from raping willy-nilly? Huh? Are we stooping to the extreme Muslim argument? “Men can’t be expected to control their lust, therefore…” ? :dubious: It seems to me it would be easier\* to require men to learn/practice self-control. Hell, we’ve established ‘rules of war’ that prohibit raping enemy forces and their civilians; we would find rape-of-colleagues to be acceptable somehow? :eek: I thought Tailhook and other similar scandals suggested otherwise. 😕 –G! \*Saul/Paul failed to take that tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/54 "2017-07-29T00:26:47Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > I don’t have any issue with someone who had previous reassignment surgery joining the military. Not all transgender persons pursue surgery. Some of us are happy with just fitting into our new gender role in society (called “non Op’s”). Some transgender persons may not be certain about surgery, or scared of the physical risks. Some transgender persons may not ever have been able to afford the surgery. This is the most common reason for not having it. So you would ban all these folks - those who are already happy, those who fear surgery, and those who are poor. > [@](#): > > Perhaps a policy of X years of service before becoming eligible would work. So I guess you should propose the same thing for service people using college incentives. And let’s not pursue the argument that college gives a clear benefit to the military, because I’ve known people who got liberal arts degrees that could not possibly help their military career. Note that Trump gave no exceptions in his Tweet tantrum - ALL transgender persons are to be denied in any capacity, he wrote. Yet despite the issue obviously being more than just one part, everyone runs to the genitals. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/55 "2017-07-29T00:39:09Z")
From what I read it seems that the main concern of the Republicans was not paying for surgery and medication. However, Trump took this to the extreme. As was pointed out above, not everyone has gender reassignment surgery. Much as I dislike the Republican agenda, I don’t think a total ban was part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/56 "2017-07-29T00:48:58Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Huh? > > Are we stooping to the extreme Muslim argument? > “Men can’t be expected to control their lust, therefore…” ? :dubious: > It seems to me it would be easier\* to require men to learn/practice self-control. > > Hell, we’ve established ‘rules of war’ that prohibit raping enemy forces and their civilians; we would find rape-of-colleagues to be acceptable somehow? :eek: > I thought Tailhook and other similar scandals suggested otherwise. 😕 > > –G! > \*Saul/Paul failed to take that tactic. That was exactly **iiandiiii** ’s argument, that banning trangendered people from serving because “the cismales won’t be able to stop themselves from raping them!” is as stupid as using the same argument to ban women from serving. That argument was exactly what he was replying to. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/57 "2017-07-31T13:53:40Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Not all transgender persons pursue surgery. Some of us are happy with just fitting into our new gender role in society (called “non Op’s”). > > Some transgender persons may not be certain about surgery, or scared of the physical risks. > > Some transgender persons may not ever have been able to afford the surgery. This is the most common reason for not having it. > > So you would ban all these folks - those who are already happy, those who fear surgery, and those who are poor. Wow, **Una** it took some fancy word twisting to read that into my post. I was speaking specifically about transgender surgery because it is the cost of that surgery that appears to be the biggest objection by detractors. How you made the leap to me supporting the ban for non-surgical trans people is beyond me. For the record, I have no issue with transgender persons, surgically changed or not, in the military. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > So I guess you should propose the same thing for service people using college incentives. And let’s not pursue the argument that college gives a clear benefit to the military, because I’ve known people who got liberal arts degrees that could not possibly help their military career. And yes, college incentives are [based on time in service, among other things](http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/military-vs-civilian-benefits-college.html). I see no reason that elective medical procedures and time off for such should be any different. How long one should commit to military service before receiving benefits for elective surgery is the only thing that I am suggesting is debatable. And for the record, I am not running to the genitals of anyone outside of my own spouse. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/58 "2017-07-31T14:20:54Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Wow, **Una** it took some fancy word twisting to read that into my post. \*\* I was speaking specifically about transgender surgery because it is the cost of that surgery that appears to be the biggest objection by detractors.\*\* How you made the leap to me supporting the ban for non-surgical trans people is beyond me. For the record, I have no issue with transgender persons, surgically changed or not, in the military. > And yes, college incentives are [based on time in service, among other things](http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/military-vs-civilian-benefits-college.html). I see no reason that elective medical procedures and time off for such should be any different. How long one should commit to military service before receiving benefits for elective surgery is the only thing that I am suggesting is debatable. > > And for the record, I am not running to the genitals of anyone outside of my own spouse. :rolleyes: I doubt the cost is the real objection. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/59 "2017-07-31T17:48:05Z")
Medical costs, morale, living/bathroom/bunking costs. Until we can afford it, we shouldn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/60 "2017-07-31T18:26:55Z")
What living/bathroom/bunking costs? Transgendered people don’t need any kind of specific accomodations for those. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156.md?page=4)