# Ban on transgenders in military **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 26, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156 "2017-07-26T13:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/61 "2017-07-31T18:51:43Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I doubt the cost is the real objection. OK, change that to “…seems to be the largest _stated_ objection…”. I can’t even begin to address any underlying reasons. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/62 "2017-08-01T00:48:56Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Wow, **Una** it took some fancy word twisting to read that into my post. I was speaking specifically about transgender surgery because it is the cost of that surgery that appears to be the biggest objection by detractors. How you made the leap to me supporting the ban for non-surgical trans people is beyond me. For the record, I have no issue with transgender persons, surgically changed or not, in the military. No, it’s not twisting anything. You are defending the detractors. You’re defending the people who are for a ban for all trans people. You are going along with their excuse for why they can ban trans people. (We know it’s just an excuse, because not giving surgery doesn’t mean you need to ban trans people.) If you defend someone, and you do not state upfront that you don’t agree with them, then the default is to assume that you do agree with them. When you go along with their excuse, then the default is to assume you are also using an excuse to defend them. This is the thing that gets certain people to cry about “virtue signaling,” when the point is really just to establish where you are coming from, because so many people use disingenuous tactics to argue for bad causes. **Una** is personally affected by this. She has every reason to think that anyone defending the bad guys are doing so for bad reasons. And, yes, you are defending them when you try to say that they have a point. Unless you say something like “These guys are being transphobic, but they may have a point in this one area.” ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/63 "2017-08-01T03:30:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > What living/bathroom/bunking costs? Transgendered people don’t need any kind of specific accomodations for those. If you have rooms/squadbays for men, and others for women, where to put the Ts? Build new buildings for them? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/64 "2017-08-01T03:39:01Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > If you have rooms/squadbays for men, and others for women, where to put the Ts? Build new buildings for them? Since there are already several thousand transgendered serving, that has already been solved. Next lame excuse? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/65 "2017-08-01T13:50:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, it’s not twisting anything. You are defending the detractors. You’re defending the people who are for a ban for all trans people. You are going along with their excuse for why they can ban trans people. (We know it’s just an excuse, because not giving surgery doesn’t mean you need to ban trans people.) > > If you defend someone, and you do not state upfront that you don’t agree with them, then the default is to assume that you do agree with them. > > When you go along with their excuse, then the default is to assume you are also using an excuse to defend them. > > This is the thing that gets certain people to cry about “virtue signaling,” when the point is really just to establish where you are coming from, because so many people use disingenuous tactics to argue for bad causes. > > **Una** is personally affected by this. She has every reason to think that anyone defending the bad guys are doing so for bad reasons. > > And, yes, you are defending them when you try to say that they have a point. Unless you say something like “These guys are being transphobic, but they may have a point in this one area.” Good grief, would you people learn to READ?!?!? I specifically stated that I have no problem with ANY transgender person serving in the military. I never said the “detractors” had a point. Please point out where I said anything against anyone if you can find it in my prior posts - but do use the words I used, not some imaginary reading between the lines because you know I speak in code bullshit. All I advocated is that there needs to be some level of time in service before elective surgery OF ANY KIND is paid by the military. Just like any other elective military benefit, like college tuition. Good lord some folks look hard to be offended, even beyond was is there IN WRITING. That’s all I can say in this forum. :mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/66 "2017-08-01T15:44:41Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Medical costs, morale, living/bathroom/bunking costs. Until we can afford it, we shouldn’t do it. We can totally afford it. The costs are less than a rounding error, compared to the overall military budget. > [@Bullitt](#): > > If you have rooms/squadbays for men, and others for women, where to put the Ts? Build new buildings for them? You put the men in with the men, and the women in with the women. Seems pretty obvious to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/67 "2017-08-01T16:07:29Z")
Well we can discuss it here 'til the cows come home, and I have my reasons based on experience why we are not quite ready to openly welcome Ts in the military, and you folks have your for welcoming them, but the decision has been made. We won’t change it here, will we? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/68 "2017-08-01T16:34:01Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > If you have rooms/squadbays for men, and others for women, where to put the Ts? Build new buildings for them? Before we solve that, where do we put the circumcised men? Do we build new buildings for them? What about women who have had breast implants–surely they need new barracks? And don’t even get me started on men who’ve had vasectomies, or women who’ve had tubal ligation. The barracks are gonna multiply like rabbits! ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/69 "2017-08-01T16:59:48Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Well we can discuss it here 'til the cows come home, and I have my reasons based on experience why we are not quite ready to openly welcome Ts in the military, and you folks have your for welcoming them, but the decision has been made. We won’t change it here, will we? To the best of my knowledge, nothing has been formally done yet. The military brass aren’t treating a tweet as a direct order; they would prefer to see some paperwork and there’s always a good chance that The Donald will simply forget he ever tweeted it. And if we have 7,000 transgender military personnel, aren’t we already openly welcoming them? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/70 "2017-08-01T17:37:53Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > If you have rooms/squadbays for men, and others for women, where to put the Ts? Build new buildings for them? Why would they need different buildings? They don’t need different buildings anywhere else. Is there a specific reason why you think a Marine Master Sergeant who happened to be transgendered would be more of a delicate flower than a transgendered accountant? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/71 "2017-08-01T17:41:40Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > we are not quite ready to openly welcome Ts in the military If that’s the case, whose responsibility is it to make a change? The military “wasn’t quite ready” to openly welcome racial integration, or women, or gays, either. The arguments about damage to readiness and unit cohesion have always been proven to be bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/72 "2017-08-01T18:40:35Z")
Yes it was just a tweet, not an official decision. Thanks for the correction. And we’re welcoming transgendered people in the military and will continue to do so until (or if ever) there’s a change, and I’m good with that. I mistakenly thought the decision was official, for many reasons including medical costs and other reasons, and if the powers that be had made that decision, I was willing to accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/73 "2017-08-01T18:50:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Why would they need different buildings? They don’t need different buildings anywhere else. Is there a specific reason why you think a Marine Master Sergeant who happened to be transgendered would be more of a delicate flower than a transgendered accountant? When I was in, 1980-1993, after Clinton signed don’t ask don’t tell, many were not willing to accept it. My unit commanding officer, at the company level, openly stated to us all that he didn’t like it, and he didn’t support it. Which I thought was very wrong, but as a platoon sergeant at the time I thought it was less appropriate to tell my platoon he was wrong. I just held it in. But with 120+ Marines in our company (a battery, technically – we were artillery), I figured there were likely around 1, 2 or 3 gays in our unit, although I had no inkling as to who they might be. Statistically speaking, it was a likelihood. To countermand our Commander in Chief was wrong, even though I did not vote for Clinton nor was I a fan of his, it was still wrong. To your point, no I don’t think a transgendered MGySgt in the infantry, as long as he or she can do the job, is less effective than one in accounting. There may be some acceptance issues, but those are the people who need to mature. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/74 "2017-08-01T18:51:45Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > And if we have 7,000 transgender military personnel, aren’t we already openly welcoming them? Are all of the transgendered military openly so? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/75 "2017-08-01T18:57:19Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Are all of the transgendered military openly so? I have no idea. But if they’re running up a specialized medical tab of $8 million/year, you’d almost have to think that at least some of them are out. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/76 "2017-08-01T18:58:07Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Why would they need different buildings? They don’t need different buildings anywhere else. Is there a specific reason why you think a Marine Master Sergeant who happened to be transgendered would be more of a delicate flower than a transgendered accountant? I was thinking more of in the field, when in a secured position and all are in tents, that they may need different tents. But I guess not. I was also thinking the decision was official, which of course it is not. I was also thing, as an example, of Caitlyn Jenner, a hero from the 1976 Olympics and someone who has fathered children, staying in womens’ quarters. Would all Women Marines be comfortable in such living arrangements? Some may not, and while they need to mature, it may possibly contribute to morale issues. But in the end, I guess separate quarters are not needed. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/77 "2017-08-02T18:40:08Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > I was thinking more of in the field, when in a secured position and all are in tents, that they may need different tents. But I guess not. I was also thinking the decision was official, which of course it is not. > > I was also thing, as an example, of Caitlyn Jenner, a hero from the 1976 Olympics and someone who has fathered children, staying in womens’ quarters. Would all Women Marines be comfortable in such living arrangements? Some may not, and while they need to mature, it may possibly contribute to morale issues. > > But in the end, I guess separate quarters are not needed. This is the military. If someone is ordered to stay in certain quarters, that’s the end of it. I expect the other soldiers in those quarters to maintain discipline and obey those orders. I don’t really give a fuck if they are comfortable with it or not. I’m sure a lot of white servicemen were “uncomfortable” with having black soldiers in their barracks when those were integrated too. They got over it. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/78 "2017-08-02T23:26:41Z")
Here’s a scenario to consider. Some showers are group showers. Everyone in one big shower room with multiple shower heads. That might be uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/79 "2017-08-03T00:33:37Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Here’s a scenario to consider. Some showers are group showers. Everyone in one big shower room with multiple shower heads. That might be uncomfortable. Traversing the mountains of Afghanistan at noon in the middle of summer is _uncomfortable_, but soldiers are still asked to do it. Soldiers are asked to do uncomfortable things all the time. And each time, they’re told to just deal with it. With that said, why are you looking at your battle buddy’s dick (or vulva, as the case may be) in the shower!? If that’s what you’re doing, then YOU are the one causing the situation to be uncomfortable. Can’t you understand that? As many times as I’ve had to use an open shower area, or sleep in open bays, I’ve never once seen anyone’s dick. Hell, I couldn’t tell you the grooming practices or foreskin status of a single person in my unit. Similarly, if any of them happen to have a clitoris, I wouldn’t fucking know. Because I’m not a pervert, and I have no reason to look. > [@running\_coach](#): > > Since there are already several thousand transgendered serving, that has already been solved. Next lame excuse? It’s quite lame as an excuse, but not exactly a lame question. There is a policy in place, but it’s too early to say that the issue is “solved”. Right now, women who are externally male are living in male facilities. Likewise, men who are externally female are having to use female facilities. They must be treated 100% as the sex listed on their personnel files. That means they will be treated as that sex for the entire time they are transitioning. Not until the treatment and transition is deemed to be complete by a proper medical authority, can the records be updated. Until that time, the soldier is treated as the sex on their birth certificate. Even if everyone is accepting and socially treats the soldier as the preferred sex, everything from uniform and grooming standards, living quarters, latrines, physical fitness standards, body-fat composition standards, etc, must all conform to the soldier’s listed sex, not the preferred sex. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156/80 "2017-08-05T16:25:02Z")
Who is looking at dicks??!! What’s your malfunction?? Can’t _ **you** _ understand? You are totally lost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-transgenders-in-military/792156.md?page=5)