# Ban the Oreos! Full Speed Ahead! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958 "2003-05-13T14:29:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/21 "2003-05-14T13:22:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Get over it **summertime**. This isn’t about big Brotyher. there’s real evidence that tfats are nasty for you. \*\* And so? To what extent should the state be allowed to act as a nanny? To what extent should the state be permitted to destroy liberty in the name of “public safety”? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/22 "2003-05-14T13:36:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*And so? To what extent should the state be allowed to act as a nanny? To what extent should the state be permitted to destroy liberty in the name of “public safety”? \*\* Ummm… this lawyer is a private citizen. The FDA only is asking for a notice to be placed on the nutrition label. what liberty is being destroyed by the state acting as a nanny? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/23 "2003-05-14T13:38:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*Since trans-fats are in like 90% of snack foods, legally speaking, how can oreos be singled out? \*\* You can sue most whomever you like. Just because you sue one cookie manufacturer doesn’t mean that you _have_ to sue them all. The gov isn’t doing this. The lawyer is a private citizen. Isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/24 "2003-05-14T13:46:33Z")
Oreo’s _can_ be made w/o hydrogenated fats. Pepsico and other companies are already in their test kitchens working on new recipes for all sorts of snack foods. **NOBODY’S GOING TO TAKE AWAY OUR COOKIES!** they’re just going to get rid of the trans fats. i don’t know what the lawyer in Marin county’s trying to do exactly. I suspect that Nabisco’s lawyers will stall him until they have their recipes changed. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/25 "2003-05-14T16:10:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Oreo’s _can_ be made w/o hydrogenated fats. Pepsico and other companies are already in their test kitchens working on new recipes for all sorts of snack foods. > > **NOBODY’S GOING TO TAKE AWAY OUR COOKIES!** > > they’re just going to get rid of the trans fats. > > i don’t know what the lawyer in Marin county’s trying to do exactly. I suspect that Nabisco’s lawyers will stall him until they have their recipes changed. \*\* In other words, they are panicking and changing the flavor of beloved foods in reaction to the latest nutritional bugaboo. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/26 "2003-05-14T16:16:40Z")
I don’t like oreos, that much and you can’t even get them in the UK, so I say BAN THEM! ---
**Author:** ![sghoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/27 "2003-05-14T16:41:58Z")
Simon, You’re the reason blowdryers have to have a warning not to use them in the shower, or not to take hemerroid cream orrally. Should there be a warning label on cars because they could kill me? Should that girl behind the counter of Wendy’s have to warn me about the potential health risk of biggie sizing? When does it end? When does America finally start letting people take the rap for their own ignorence? Why is it the job of everyone else to make sure I don’t make foolish mistakes? It’s not like Nabisco was secretly poisoning the world. They used a certain fat in their filling. And for right now, the nutritionists say it’s bad (remember how eggs used to be bad…then good…then bad…etc). Let’s call this what it is=Lawyer trying to make some quick money. I for one will continue to eat oreos, knowing full well, that I only have myself to blame if I get heart disease, rather than try to pass the buck. I mean, if there was a warning label, do you think it would matter? We all see how well it’s worked on smokers. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/28 "2003-05-14T16:57:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > \*\*In other words, they are panicking and changing the flavor of beloved foods in reaction to the latest nutritional bugaboo. \*\* i’m not convinced that the flavor of snack items will change. They can use the same fats, they’ll just use the cis arrangement of them instead of the trans arrangement. Apparently the difference is the shape of the molecules not the components. i’ll be suprised if the flavor changes in any dramatic way. The reason why trans fats are favored by industry is that they resist oxidation better, hence a longer shelf life. It’s not that they taste better. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/29 "2003-05-14T17:09:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sghoul \* > \*\* > Simon, > You’re the reason blowdryers have to have a warning not to use them in the shower, or not to take hemerroid cream orrally. > \*\* I forgot when I did those things. Can you cite for me so I can remember doing them? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sghoul \* > \*\* > When does it end? When does America finally start letting people take the rap for their own ignorence? Why is it the job of everyone else to make sure I don’t make foolish mistakes? It’s not like Nabisco was secretly poisoning the world. They used a certain fat in their filling. And for right now, the nutritionists say it’s bad (remember how eggs used to be bad…then good…then bad…etc). > \*\* First, the FDA doesn’t want to ban trans fats- it only wants them to be noted on the nutritional label. So it’s not a case of protecting people from their own ignorance so much as it is an attempt to fight ignorance by supplying info. One of the differences between trans fats and the other things that you’ve mentioned is that eggs & eggcetera were always reccomended in limited amounts because they have many other nutritional benefits. Trans fats have no nutritional benefits that other fats don’t have. The responses here are evidence that there are people who are not aware of the NAS reports about trans fats. Foods are not currently labelled as containing trans fats. So I’d say that the FDA is only trying to allow people to make an informed choice. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sghoul \* > \*\* > Let’s call this what it is=Lawyer trying to make some quick money. I for one will continue to eat oreos, knowing full well, that I only have myself to blame if I get heart disease, rather than try to pass the buck. I mean, if there was a warning label, do you think it would matter? We all see how well it’s worked on smokers. > \*\* I have no care really about what the lawyer is trying to do. I think that you’ll find that soon your Oreos, (and mine too), will be made with cis fats instead. I hope you can adjust. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/30 "2003-05-14T17:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*i’m not convinced that the flavor of snack items will change. > They can use the same fats, they’ll just use the cis arrangement of them instead of the trans arrangement. > Apparently the difference is the shape of the molecules not the components. > > i’ll be suprised if the flavor changes in any dramatic way. > The reason why trans fats are favored by industry is that they resist oxidation better, hence a longer shelf life. > It’s not that they taste better. \*\* Better tell it to Kraft foods. Becuase [here](http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=8830) they say the following: > [@](#): > > \*\* > ``We know the importance of good nutrition and we are committed to helping people lead a healthy lifestyle, but we have no choice than to draw the line against baseless lawsuits like this,’’ Michael Mudd, Kraft’s senior vice president for corporate affairs, said in an interview. > > `We've been ... exploring ways to reduce trans fat in Oreos and those efforts are continuing,'' he continued. `You can make a cookie without trans fat but what you’re trading off is the unique taste and texture that people have come to expect.’’ ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/31 "2003-05-14T18:02:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > \*\*Better tell it to Kraft foods. Becuase [here](http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=8830) they say the following: \*\* Well, I’ve been wrong more often than I’ve been suprised. But I expect that senior vice presidents in charge of corporate affairs are liable to put a spin on things. I’ll _still_ be suprised if the flavor changes in any dramatic way ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/32 "2003-05-14T18:22:29Z")
Does anyone have a cite that shows exactly what these evil trans fats do? I’m talking something that says, “X grams of trans fats will lead to a Y increase in heart disease,” or something to that effect. Without some hard numbers, I can’t help but be reminded by the Nasty Evil Fried Foods that cause cancer, only you have to eat something like 200 lbs of potato chips per day to have a noticable effect on cancer rates. Or the Nasty Evil Playground Equipment that causes cancer in children, provided the child achieve concentrations of the vile chemical in question so large, they’d have to pretty much eat the jungle-gym. Until then, I’ll take this report with the grain of salt it deserves. (No, wait, better not. Salt is the enemy. Or is it? I forget what the dieticians posted on their Weekly List of Bad Foods That Will Next Week Be Found To Actually Prevent Several Diseases.) If the hazard of trans fats cannot be firmly established to be a legitimate hazard (ie, more of a hazard than normal fats), then it’s unfair to force companies to list them. Oh, and stay the hell away from my Oreos. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/33 "2003-05-14T18:28:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Well, I’ve been wrong more often than I’ve been suprised. > But I expect that senior vice presidents in charge of corporate affairs are liable to put a spin on things. > I’ll _still_ be suprised if the flavor changes in any dramatic way \*\* A consistant flavor and texture are of paramount importance to the packaged food industry. You wouldn’t believe the lengths that Frito Lay goes to ensure that their product has a certain amount of crunch and flavor. To account for variables in temperature and humitidy there are 3-4 different Twinkie recipes. This ensures that no matter what time of year the Twinkie is made it will retain the same flavor and texture. I know what an Oreo is suppose to taste like. If they change the recipe I might not enjoy it as much as I used to. I’d probably still enjoy it but it wouldn’t be the same Oreo I had as a child. Marc ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/34 "2003-05-14T18:37:12Z")
It’s not quite as detailed as you might like [http://books.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/336.html#pagetop](http://books.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/336.html#pagetop) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/35 "2003-05-14T18:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Does anyone have a cite that shows exactly what these evil trans fats do? When enough of them accumulate, they band together, burst out of your chest like and _alien_ and begin hunting your next-door neighbors. Really. Alright, I made it up. What do you want from me? I did notice no one attacked me for blatant and gross use of misquoting. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/36 "2003-05-14T18:51:06Z")
**MGibson** I’ve been suprised before. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/37 "2003-05-14T19:32:43Z")
Nabisco etc. have teams of highly qualified experts who will work to protect the integrity of the flavors of **our** favorite snack foods. I’m not at all clear as to how noting trans fats on nutrition labels is bad. Manufacturer are changing recipes in anticipation of consumers’ preferences. There is no gov mandate that they can’t be used. Trans fats are naturally occuring in some meats and dairy products, IIRC. Can’t really ban milk and meat now can they? > [@](#): > > \*\* > NAS says that trans fat doesn’t do anything good for you and that it is related to health risks. > > The FDA wants to note trans fat content. > > Snack companies think that when these two things, when taken together, will cause consumers to desire items that are lower in trans fats. They are working on product lines that have less or no trans fats. > > BFD!\*\* Who wants to address the lawyer and his lawsuit mentioned in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/38 "2003-05-16T01:22:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Get over it **summertime**. This isn’t about big Brotyher. there’s real evidence that tfats are nasty for you. there’s no good reason to keep 'em except that they have a better shelf life than non-hydrogenated fats. > If anything it can be seen as a victory of the little guy. > \*\* No, it’s yet another situation where nannyism is trying to murder reason. Last time I was at the supermarket, nobody was forcing any fats, trans or otherwise, on me. The simple truth is that there are people who insist that all liberty be obliterated. Their mechanism for making this palatable is to do so under the guise of “protecting” people. Paternalism is the first step to tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/39 "2003-05-16T01:26:57Z")
For the record, [the suit has been dropped](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/14/oreo.suit/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958/40 "2003-05-16T01:38:54Z")
I guess that’s the end of that. > [@](#): > > Joseph said he will drop his lawsuit because he has learned that Kraft is working on ways to reduce trans fat in Oreos. And Kraft says it was doing that before the suit. So either they CAN replace/reduce trans fats without changing the flavor, or they decided it was the right move for some other reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-the-oreos-full-speed-ahead/174958.md?page=3)