# Band of Brothers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, hbomax-wb-dc\ **Created:** [May 26, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082 "2024-05-26T03:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/41 "2024-05-27T16:23:09Z")
Not surprisingly, on Memorial Day it gets a shoutout. Let us not forget their sacrifice. > **[Opinion | On Memorial Day, let’s remember the price paid for what we have](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/05/24/memorial-day-military-ultimate-sacrifice/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzE2NzgyNDAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzE4MTY0Nzk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MTY3ODI0MDAsImp0aSI6IjljNDYzMzEyLTA0MTYtNDRkMi1iMzYyLWQyNTdmYmQ3MjUzNyIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9ucy8yMDI0LzA1LzI0L21lbW9yaWFsLWRheS1taWxpdGFyeS11bHRpbWF0ZS1zYWNyaWZpY2UvIn0.160EEG6nnlvCdCP25j3KWlhEnlOVrsiV_zUjllM3tf8&itid=gfta)** > > Arlington National Cemetery’s headstones speak with silent eloquence of the price paid for what we have. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/42 "2024-05-27T16:59:46Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Why did he try to court martial him over trivialities? Sobel chose to try and punish him using non-judicial procedures that would have limited punishment. It’s more in line with the process of punishment under Article 15 of the UCMJ today. Winters had the choice to either accept the non-judicial punishment or demand a trial by court martial. Winters **chose** trial by court martial. That Sobel chose to use those much more limited procedures over a small, and contested, infraction by a member of his command teams speaks to the command climate Sobel was creating. Sobel didn’t start off by choosing to try and court martial Winters, though. He painted himself into a corner where trying to court martial was his incentivized next step. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/43 "2024-05-27T18:31:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > Damien Lewis (Winters) and Ron Livingston (Nixon) were obviously very good. Donnie Wahlberg was also pretty good. I always enjoy watching Dale Dye who always plays some commanding officer (and usually consultants on the production). > > Neal McDonough (Buck Compton) also made a very strong impression, as basically the only competent junior officer they had. He was pretty good too. Also Michael Cudlitz (Bull) who also played Abraham on The Walking Dead. I also recall cameos by Simon Pegg and Jimmy Fallon. Colin Hanks was also good in a small one-episode role as a West Point graduate in first assignment. It was interesting in how it showed the politics around some of the privilege granted West Point grads and introducing a new and inexperienced officer into a seasoned combat unit without turning him into another arrogant and inept officer like Sobel or Lt Dike. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/44 "2024-05-27T18:33:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Colin Hanks was also good in a small one-episode role as a West Point graduate in first assignment. It was interesting in how it showed the politics around some of the privilege granted West Point grads and introducing a new and inexperienced officer into a seasoned combat unit without turning him into another arrogant and inept officer like Sobel or Lt Dike. Was he the guy who went on one mission pretty much as an observer, and immediately got promoted to 1st Lt? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/45 "2024-05-27T18:35:46Z")
I agree that’s an important distinction. Sobel even told him to accept an obviously unfair punishment. In my question, I meant why would Sobel even have this as an option given the triviality of his concerns? I have known enough petty people, but only sociopaths would be so extreme. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/46 "2024-05-27T18:40:59Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > Colin Hanks was also good in a small one-episode role as a West Point graduate in first assignment. It was interesting in how it showed the politics around some of the privilege granted West Point grads and introducing a new and inexperienced officer into a seasoned combat unit without turning him into another arrogant and inept officer like Sobel or Lt Dike. > > Was he the guy who went on one mission pretty much as an observer, and immediately got promoted to 1st Lt? That’s the one. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/47 "2024-05-27T18:53:12Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I was once told by my CO to perform an action that was probably illegal (I was a Navy Chief at the time). He wanted to hide some barrels full of unknown substance prior to an EPA visit to the base. I politely refused to do that and suggested that if he wanted them moved he should give that order to the men himself. This was basically the equivalent of saying “stick that up your ass”. He backed off on it. Going off-topic to give the highly deserved praise for this. That didn’t happen on [The Iowa](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion). Dale Eugene Mortenson (who died in 2022) was the only person who tried to stop it. One of his sailors cried “Mort! Mort! Mort!” just as the turret exploded, which is also the Latin word for death. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/48 "2024-05-27T21:14:46Z")
I’ve had three commands where I held similar authority (although the UCMJ was a post WWII creation.) Sobel had more authority that got limited post WWII but commanders have quite a bit of authority. The reason for that level of authority is because it mostly works for handling relatively minor cases at a low level. Controls, like being able to demand a court martial, exist in the system because sometimes commanders are dumb or abuse their considerable power. What Sobel was charging him with wasn’t exactly trivial. He thought Winters disobeyed a direct order. It was a relatively trivial order about checking on the latrine cleaning detail but it was a direct and lawful order. There’s not really a good way for the system to cleanly distinguish which orders commanders should have the authority to enforce. Some of the seemingly little things can make a critical difference in an environment where sometimes people are literally doing their utmost to kill you. Trusting commanders with the tools to maintain good order and discipline related to minor infractions should be something they can handle. It’s something that they overwhelmingly do handle well. We rely on other controls and higher level commanders to address the exceptions…like Sobel. We don’t cripple the overwhelmingly majority’s ability to command just because there are Sobel’s in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/49 "2024-05-27T23:18:04Z")
I understand, but let me phrase things another way. How many times in your career were you threatened with court martial? My guess is very few. When reaching into the set of discipline options for commonly encountered situations, it seems to me it would rarely be the appropriate choice. Could I be wrong? I often am. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/50 "2024-05-27T23:44:09Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > He thought Winters disobeyed a direct order. It was a relatively trivial order about checking on the latrine cleaning detail but it was a direct and lawful order. IDK about real life, but in the miniseries he gave Winters to conflicting orders, only one of which could be carried out. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/51 "2024-05-28T14:50:42Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > When reaching into the set of discipline options for commonly encountered situations, it seems to me it would rarely be the appropriate choice. Could I be wrong? I often am. Where you are wrong is Winters was never threatened with court martial. Sobel did make describe as the more appropriate choice. He chose to pursue the lesser nonjudicial disciplinary process (which I’d still describe as extreme for the case.) As part of the process he was **required** to inform Winters that he had the right to refuse and instead have the case handled by court martial. Winters chose the court. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/52 "2024-06-06T18:55:25Z")
I have seen BoB more than I can count. I read the book. I read the book about Winters. I read the book by Winters. I read the book Webster wrote right after the war. I read the book by Guarnere and Hefron. I met Bill Guarnere shortly before his death. Some of BoB and the Pacific have very local ties to me. I drive over the John Basilone bridge and pass by his statue all the time. I’ve bought gas at the station that sits were his house used to be. Bob Lecke was a reporter with a nearby newspaper. Lewis Nixon came from Nixon NJ which was part of a township called Raritan. Because there were several towns called Raritan (including Basilone’s hometown just a few miles away) they voted to change the name. One of the choices was Nixon. They went with the other choice and changed the name to Edison. Winters did move to the area and worked for Nixon’s father until he pulled a gun on him in a drunken rage. Winters eventually moved back to the area near Hersey PA. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Dick Winters called Speirs and asked about shooting the group of prisoners. He was willing to send a letter acknowledging that it was ok to put in the book. > > There are other interviews wit WWII veterans that they didn’t always take prisoners. It depended on the situation. Sometimes they needed to advance quickly and use the element of surprise. > > [https://youtu.be/W-V6OAtgr6c?si=EWRl\_Ad81NcUsIfY](https://youtu.be/W-V6OAtgr6c?si=EWRl_Ad81NcUsIfY) This is one part of the book (and series) that shows that Ambrose got too close to his subjects. The book began when he was researching his book on D-Day. That book does have quotes from several Easy company guys. Ambrose became intrigued by these guys because he never saw a group that held together so well after the war. Most stayed in contact until the day they died. That and the broad range of combat experience made them an ideal subject for a book. But like I said he got a little too close. It was clear that Spiers killed the prisoners. Winters was always very clear of the subject and said so in his book. He said at another time Spiers would have been court martialed but they couldn’t afford to lose officers. Ambrose kept it ambiguous in the book even though he had to know the truth. Another example is the unnamed sentry that shot Moose. It wasn’t a mystery to the men in the company but Ambrose chose to not name him. > [@XOldiesJock](#): > > > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > > > \*\* Is “The Pacific” nearly as good?\* > > “The Pacific” is less focused on the war than “Band of Brothers,” suffers from having many characters to follow, often centers on their uninteresting personal lives over the war, and sometimes comes off like a soap opera. That said, there are several excellent (and graphic) episodes involving the actual war in the Pacific that are quite harrowing. Overall, we were not as impressed as we were with BOB, but it’s still a good watch, despite its flaws. That is the big issue about _The Pacific._ There wasn’t one unit or group of men that were involved from the beginning to the end. Easy Company’s story flows so well with the narrative of the European Campaign it almost seems made up. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > > > But in real life, didn’t he win a Bronze Star (in Korea, perhaps)? > > What many (the vast majority of) people don’t realize is that anyone awarded the combat infantry badge for WWII (that is, was in the infantry and was in combat for at least the briefest of moments) was retroactively awarded a Bronze Star in 1947. Apart from that, it’s also a lot easier for an officer to get a medal as a matter of course (as opposed to extraordinary effort) than it is for most. > > Or, maybe Sobel really did something exceptional. IIRC, one of the real life NCOs portrayed prominently in the series (Lipton, I think) said he felt Sobel got a bad rap, and I can respect that. A lot of media designed for popular consumption could be cited for lacking nuance in its depiction of officers, and particularly unpopular officers, whether it’s historical fiction or space opera. Not that I was ever an unpopular officer—oh heavens no! > > …honest. > > > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > > > Authenticity is a tough nut to pull off. Did the show have any inaccuracies or anachronisms? > > I am sure there is a website cataloguing several, but to me the most egregious error (that I know of) is (spoiler for episode 3 if you haven’t seen it): > > the series devotes an entire episode to the story of Private Blithe, who goes from reluctant fighter to born again killer, only to have the episode inform us that the solider died of wounds, when in fact the soldier recovered and went on to have a distinguished career in the military. This error was in the book. Too bad Ambrose didn’t think to plagiarize that section from a more reliable source. Unlike the Silver Star, the Bronze Star can be awarded for both valor and merit. Just running the airborne school in England was probably meritorious enough to earn a Bronze Star for merit. I’ve never heard an explanation of why they devoted an entire episode to Blithe. It’s easy to blame Ambrose but that’s what he was told by others in the company. It still doesn’t explain his prominence in the series. In the book he’s mentioned in a couple of sentences. Blithe was awarded the Silver Star for actions in Korea. He died while on active duty in Germany from a ruptured appendix in 1967. > [@DCnDC](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > There’s an entire BoB episode focusing on one of the medics at Bastogne. > > And the nurse featured in that episode was a real person, who died the same way. There is no record of her ever meeting Eugene Roe, but it’s likely they would have encountered one another at some point. > > [Renée Lemaire - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Lemaire) Although they got the name wrong in the series they did show a nurse from the Belgian Congo working there. Augusta Chiwy was a real person who survived the war and lived until 2015. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > Colin Hanks was also good in a small one-episode role as a West Point graduate in first assignment. It was interesting in how it showed the politics around some of the privilege granted West Point grads and introducing a new and inexperienced officer into a seasoned combat unit without turning him into another arrogant and inept officer like Sobel or Lt Dike. > > Was he the guy who went on one mission pretty much as an observer, and immediately got promoted to 1st Lt? Also a real person. Jones stayed in Germany as part of the army of occupation. He died from complications of surgery due to a car accident. > **[CPT Henry Sweet Jones Jr. (1924-1947) - Find a...](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/49239944/henry-sweet-jones)** > > Jones was born in Buffalo, New York on the 27th April 1924 to Helen Susan and Henry Sweet Jones sr. He had no siblings. His father had served in the Lafayette Escadrille, in World War IBiographyA graduate of the United States Military... ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/53 "2024-06-06T19:02:59Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Winters did move to the area and worked for Nixon’s father until he pulled a gun on him in a drunken rage. Who pulled the gun? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/54 "2024-06-06T19:13:08Z")
The series is a clinic of British actors doing great American accents. Number one of course is Damien Lewis who is flawless. Really the only one I have a problem with is Marc Warren. I don’t understand why his story was the focus of an episode and his accent is really weird. Also just a ton of future stars and prominent actors. Tom Hardy, James McAvoy, Michael Fassbender, Stephen Graham, Andrew Scott, Dominic Cooper, Jason O’Mara… ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/55 "2024-06-06T19:16:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > Winters did move to the area and worked for Nixon’s father until he pulled a gun on him in a drunken rage. > > Who pulled the gun? Old man Nixon the head of Nixon Nitration Works. IIRC he was naked at the time. It’s been awhile since I read it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/56 "2024-06-06T19:20:48Z")
That’s what I assumed, but only because the TV show depicted Winters as not being a drinker. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/57 "2024-06-06T19:27:06Z")
I was a high school student in Minneapolis when Universal arrived in 1969 or '70 to film _ **Airport** _. They chose MPS/StP because the winters there are usually cold with lots of snow. Unfortunately, the winter that year was one of the mildest in decades. They had to truck in huge volumes of fake snow to film the outdoor scenes. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/58 "2024-06-06T19:31:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s what I assumed, but only because the TV show depicted Winters as not being a drinker. Yes I didn’t write that clearly. Winters was sincerely religious. He listed his religion as Lutheran but I believe much of his family was Mennonite which wouldn’t be unusual were he grew up and eventually returned to. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082/59 "2024-06-07T02:19:30Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Really the only one I have a problem with is Marc Warren. I don’t understand why his story was the focus of an episode I think his character is there to show that even though these guys are built up as the best of the best, they are still human and would react to such a stressful situation in their own ways, some of them not necessarily valiant. Falling asleep on D-Day and not making the effort to rejoin his unit, going slightly catatonic and the temporary blindness humanizes him, shows they aren’t just all Rambos. This is reinforced by the opening interviews with the real Easy guys about how they handled the fear they had and this episode picks one guy to focus on as an example. Since he was a barely mentioned character in the book – and since they thought he was dead – it was easy to turn him into one of those “certain characters and events have been altered for dramatic purposes” characters you see in the disclaimers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/band-of-brothers/1002082.md?page=2)