# Bands that are actually "Johnny and his guys" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 11, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037 "2013-02-11T23:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/141 "2013-02-17T22:13:15Z")
Re: Townshend and The Who–songwriting notwithstanding, Pete has said that Roger is the undisputed leader of the group. It was Daltrey who had to drag a stoned Pete out of bed to get to the gigs in the early days. Without Townshend’s brilliant songwriting The Who would not have become what they did, but they wouldn’t have made it without Roger’s determination either. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/142 "2013-02-18T02:16:00Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > There’s no question that Townshend was always the guiding creative force in the Who, but if there was ever a group where _every_ member was vital to the band’s identity, the Who was it. This was made abundantly clear when Keith Moon died and the heart seemed to go out of the band for good. Agreed. _The Who_ is very possibly the _least_ appropriate of all bands for this thread. Daltrey and Townshend hated one anotehr for years, but they stayed together because both knew the other was essential to the band’s success (and Moon and Entwistle were essential to the true Who sound too). Just because one person is the songwriter, it does not necessarily follow that it is _his_ (or her) band and all the rest are replaceable. ---
**Author:** ![President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/President_Johnny_Gentle)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/143 "2013-02-18T03:08:29Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > How about Alex Chilton and Big Star or Paul Westerberg and The Replacements? Gotta firmly disagree for the Replacements. Once Paul tried to assert himself in such a role, the band fell apart. I think they fit the Sting and the Police model mentioned earlier in the thread. Paul may have written the songs, but he needed the others in order to actually have any soul to his music. _All Shook Down_ was essentially a Paul solo album, and it sounds it. And to tie in with another band mentioned in the thread, the realization that Tommy has spent more time in GnR than he did with the Replacements (as well as more time than Duff spent with GnR) just seems wrong at a number of different levels. Both bands seem to provide examples of what can go bad if one person becomes convinced that they are the Johnny. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/144 "2013-02-18T03:34:46Z")
Queens of the Stone Age are basically Josh Homme and whoever he wants to work with (and is available). There are several regular contributors, and many of them get to step into the spotlight, but Josh founded the band and he is the only full time member. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/145 "2013-02-18T07:34:03Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > Re: Townshend and The Who–songwriting notwithstanding, Pete has said that Roger is the undisputed leader of the group. It was Daltrey who had to drag a stoned Pete out of bed to get to the gigs in the early days. Without Townshend’s brilliant songwriting The Who would not have become what they did, but they wouldn’t have made it without Roger’s determination either. Okay, and Brian Epstein is the leader of the Beatles, according to your criteria. They broke up a couple years after his death. Surely OP’s Knopfler would give bandmates David Knopfler, John Illsley and Pick Withers some credit. Bands are a team effort, but for **OP’s criteria** , I don’t see why Townshend would not be worth a mention. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/146 "2013-02-18T12:14:33Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > Okay, and Brian Epstein is the leader of the Beatles, according to your criteria. They broke up a couple years after his death. Surely OP’s Knopfler would give bandmates David Knopfler, John Illsley and Pick Withers some credit. Bands are a team effort, but for **OP’s criteria** , I don’t see why Townshend would not be worth a mention. Maybe you should start your own thread on “bands where one member wrote most of the songs”. Then you can have _The Who_ as an example. If you think this is what this thread is supposed to be about, then I think you need to read the OP again. All of the original _Who_ were strong and distinctive musical personalities who each played a large role in shaping the band’s unique sound and image. _Dire Straits_ is quite a different case. I is not just that Mark Knopfler wrote teh songs and played lead, it is that he could have done much the same thing with pretty much any other competent sidemen. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/147 "2013-02-18T13:35:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > There are some bands that, despite the name “band”, are **the personal projects of one person**. > . > . > **Dire Straits** (Even though Knopfler had a solo career, DS was his band. He wrote or co-wrote all the songs, played lead guitat and lead vocal in all the songs, no band member is credited with co-writing) > > Guns’n’Roses and BonJovi are borderline for me. > [@njtt](#): > > Maybe you should start your own thread on “bands where one member wrote most of the songs”. Then you can have _The Who_ as an example. If you think this is what this thread is supposed to be about, then I think you need to read the OP again. … I is not just that Mark Knopfler wrote teh songs and played lead, it is that he could have done much the same thing with pretty much any other competent sidemen. My apologies if my interpretation of the OP is somewhat different than yours. Thus I shouldn’t post in this thread? OP mentioned “borderline” bands himself. Not only did Townshend write most of the songs, but he developed the concepts for four of their biggest albums which happened to be concept albums. He recorded them on his own, playing all of the instruments, and released songs on his Scoop albums. The albums were in a very real sense his own personal projects. Entwistle and Daltrey complained that they were nothing more than hired hands on these albums. Although they all contributed to their live sound, Townshend was the leader there too. From a musical standpoint, I’m seeing Townshend=leader. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/148 "2013-02-18T14:00:26Z")
Lots of misinterpretation in this thread. No way in hell were The Police Sting’s band. It was Stewart’s - he came up with the name, the label, brought in Sting, and later Andy Summers (the band’s second guitarist). He wrote the first single “Fall Out” and the band wouldn’t have gotten anywhere if not for Miles Copeland III’s connections in the business (and Ian’s plugging). Around the time of _Ghost in the Machine_ is when Sting _tried_ to turn the band into his backing band. That’s why there’s only that album and _Synchronicity_ after. “Mother” is famously horrible, but there are excellent Summers songs (mostly B-sides, sadly: “Friends,” “Someone to Talk to,” “Omegaman”) as well as Copeland songs (“Does Everyone Stare,” “Miss Gradenko”). All of the previous albums have significant contributions from the other band members. Sting is the lead singer and dominant songwriter - he’s damn good at it - but some of the best tracks on the first three albums are co-written or even written by the others. Pretenders, similarly, became Chrissy and backing musicians, especially in the late 80s when Martin Chambers left. But it wasn’t by design - two founding members died. The 1990s version with Andy Hobson and Andy Seymour was a band, with the latter sharing songwriting credits with Hynde. XTC was certainly dominated by Andy Partridge, but Barry Andrews and Dave Gregory were instrumental (heh) in shaping the band’s sound. Their first big hit (and arguably their biggest) “Making Plans for Nigel” is a Moulding composition, sung by him. Ditto “Majors and Generals” and “Ball and Chain.” So **sco3tt** , I get the point that Partridge was an ornery bastard and the dominant personality, but his solo stuff and demos don’t much sound like what the band made. Terry Chambers, one of my favorite drummers, pretty much had no creative input in the band, that’s true. The The owns this thread. Matt Johnson is pretty much unwilling to put his name on anything, but we know it’s you and whatever mates you’re chilling with Matt! ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/149 "2013-02-18T20:55:55Z")
Porcupine Tree were at the beginning a case of Steven Wilson pretending to be a band, complete with a fake band history. A real band was later formed with real contributions by other members. Despite this, I do believe that every member was ultimately replaceable. “Harmony Korine” is instructive here: despite being released on Wilson’s first (official) solo album, it could easily have been a track from the Porcupine Tree album released the same year; Wilson played every instrument on the track bar drums (which were provided by Porcupine Tree’s second drummer, Gavin Harrison). Porcupine Tree was really just a name that allowed Wilson to package his progressive rock/psychedelic/metal experiments and play at being a bandleader at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/150 "2013-02-18T21:40:48Z")
> [@President\_Johnny\_Gentle](#): > > Gotta firmly disagree for the Replacements. Once Paul tried to assert himself in such a role, the band fell apart. I think they fit the Sting and the Police model mentioned earlier in the thread. Paul may have written the songs, but he needed the others in order to actually have any soul to his music. _All Shook Down_ was essentially a Paul solo album, and it sounds it. > > And to tie in with another band mentioned in the thread, the realization that Tommy has spent more time in GnR than he did with the Replacements (as well as more time than Duff spent with GnR) just seems wrong at a number of different levels. Both bands seem to provide examples of what can go bad if one person becomes convinced that they are the Johnny. I agree with all of this, especially the fact that _All Shook Down_ is basically the first Westerberg solo album. I always find it sad that Tommy has been in GnR longer than The Replacements. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_Cello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Clark\_Cello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_Cello)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/151 "2013-02-19T01:25:43Z")
Of the bands in this thread that I am familiar with, I strongly disagree with probably half of them. The way I read the OP is that the band would basically have been the same if you replaced the other members with a bunch of studio musicians. That is absolutely NOT the case with many of the bands mentioned here. Pink Floyd was NOT just Roger Waters. David Gilmour had a HUGE impact on the sound and music of the band (oh, yeah, and there was that Syd Barrett guy for a while as well). The Who? Are you kidding me? Even aside from the (admittedly few) songs he wrote, The Ox had a large impact on the sound of the band due to the way he played (and Pete, as has been said, would freely admit that). With Pete’s guitar playing being somewhat limited (he always had an inferiority complex to guys like Clapton), Entwhistle did a lot of melodic things on the bass. The man was an innovator. And Waters and Moon had PLENTY of influence on the sound as well. The Police? What? If you want to listen to what the Police would have sounded like if it was just Sting and the boys, listen to his solo albums. I exaggerate, but not by much. The Police was three guys with very strong personalities. No way in the world were Copeland and Summers just there for the ride. I could go on, but these are just some of the examples that struck me as crazy. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/152 "2013-02-19T02:36:34Z")
> [@Clark\_Cello](#): > > The Who? Are you kidding me? Even aside from the (admittedly few) songs he wrote, The Ox had a large impact on the sound of the band due to the way he played (and Pete, as has been said, would freely admit that). With Pete’s guitar playing being somewhat limited (he always had an inferiority complex to guys like Clapton), Entwhistle did a lot of melodic things on the bass. The man was an innovator. And Waters and Moon had PLENTY of influence on the sound as well. Yeah, I think people tend to underrate/underestimate rhythm sections. It depends on the band, but in many cases, I think they’re at least as important as the lead guitarist and singer, and I’d argue sometimes even more. People say Zep is Page & Plant. I say it’s Bonham and JPJ. Sabbath is Iommi and Osbourne? I’m rocking out to Geezer and Bill Ward. As I said before, I would put Moon (and Entwhistle) essential to the Who’s sound, and even saying he had “plenty” of influence on the sound is understating it. Post-Moon Who just doesn’t sound like “the Who” to me. But, most of all, all these bands are who they are because of every single band member’s contribution. That’s why the Police are an especially puzzling choice to me. Every single person in that band was essential to the sound. Same with the Who. ---
**Author:** ![Pine\_Fresh\_Scent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/43a26b/32.png) [@Pine\_Fresh\_Scent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pine_Fresh_Scent)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/153 "2013-02-19T09:04:47Z")
I submit that The Beach Boys = [Brian Wilson.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Wilson) I’m reading Kent Hartman’s book [“The Wrecking Crew”](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/books/the-wrecking-crew-by-kent-hartman-on-60s-studio-musicians.html?_r=0) about '60s studio musicians and it mentions several acts that used this core group of Los Angeles-based hired guns to help produce new music in the studio while the “real” bands remained on the road, dropping in to record their vocals when able. Glen Campbell was a member of the Wrecking Crew and sometimes stood in for Wilson to allow Brian time to work on songwriting and production, culminating in _Pet Sounds._ From the Wiki article: > [@](#): > > As he began work on the new project, _Pet Sounds_, Wilson formed a temporary songwriting partnership with lyricist Tony Asher. Wilson, who had recorded the album’s instrumentation with The Wrecking Crew, then gathered with The Beach Boys to record vocal overdubs, following their return from a tour of Japan. Upon hearing what Wilson had created for the first time in 1965, the group, particularly Mike Love, was somewhat critical of their leader’s music, and expressed their dissatisfaction. At this time, Wilson still had considerable control within the group and, according to Wilson, they eventually overcame their initial negative reaction, as his newly created music began to near completion; “They thought it was too far-out to do, you know?.. But then when it was all done, they liked it. They started liking it.” The album was released May 16, 1966 and, despite modest sales figures at the time, has since become widely critically acclaimed, often being cited among the all-time greatest albums. Although the record was issued under the group’s name, Pet Sounds is arguably seen as a Brian Wilson solo album—Wilson even toyed with the idea by releasing “Caroline, No” as a solo single in March 1966—reaching no. 32 on the Billboard charts. Also, can Mike Love be any more of an [asshole](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oZSAQX2uuUY#t=207s)? He should have stayed in Kokomo. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/154 "2013-02-19T14:32:01Z")
Having scanned through 4 pages of this thread while I really should be paying attention to the training session I’m observing, I’ll add these nuggets. Earlier someone mentioned 10,000 Maniacs as a perfect example of this phenomenon. I 100% agree. Natalie Merchant’s voice was the defining sound of the band, and she did most of the lyric writing as well. Another observation I’ve taken from this thread is that there are a number of examples of a dominant personality being kept in check by remaining in a band, as proven by their going a little over the edge after they left the band. I give as examples of this Sting after the Police, and Roger Waters after Pink Floyd. Sting’s pompous assholeness seemed more contained as a member of the Police, and Rogers weirdness went a little too far after he left PF. Other examples out there I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/155 "2013-02-19T15:56:23Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > Another observation I’ve taken from this thread is that there are a number of examples of a dominant personality being kept in check by remaining in a band, as proven by their going a little over the edge after they left the band. I give as examples of this Sting after the Police, and Roger Waters after Pink Floyd. Sting’s pompous assholeness seemed more contained as a member of the Police, and Rogers weirdness went a little too far after he left PF. Other examples out there I’m sure. I think John Lennon and Paul McCartney are popularly considered to be the original examples of this phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037/156 "2013-02-19T16:14:55Z")
> [@Pine\_Fresh\_Scent](#): > > I submit that The Beach Boys = [Brian Wilson.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Wilson) That works in the specific case of the _Pet Sounds_ album, but definitely not for the Beach Boys’ career as a whole (and definitely _definitely_ not as a live act). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-are-actually-johnny-and-his-guys/650037.md?page=7)