# Bands that booted an original member before hitting it big. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 6, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666 "2013-12-06T13:06:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/101 "2013-12-09T21:14:18Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > The Beatles and the Hurricanes were both working in Hamburg at the same time. So the members of both groups got to hang out and get to know each other. I know that. What’s your point? They knew Ringo and they knew he was a better drummer than Pete. So quite a bit later, when they were about about to get auditioned for a recording contract, and were afraid Pete’s weak drumming might blow it for them (and when they also had something to offer Ringo that they didn’t before: a shot at the big time beyond Liverpool) they dumped Pete and recruited Ringo. Makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/102 "2013-12-09T21:25:58Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Roy Wood, along with Jeff Lynne, were the founders of ELO, but they didn’t hit it big until after Wood left and Lynne became sole leader of the ship. But I don’t know if he was “booted” or left out of creative differences or whatever. Wood was a lot better known than Lynne at that time, and had pretty much been considered the leader of _The Move_ out of which _ELO_ developed. I doubt that it was a matter of him being booted. Also, _The Move_ and the early _ELO_ with Wood in it were successful in Britain (at least) already. (Wood had quite a bit of success after splitting with _ELO_, too, as a solo artist and with his new band _Wizard_. Initially, he was probably the more successful.) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/103 "2013-12-09T22:48:18Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Wood was a lot better known than Lynne at that time, and had pretty much been considered the leader of _The Move_ out of which _ELO_ developed. I doubt that it was a matter of him being booted. Also, _The Move_ and the early _ELO_ with Wood in it were successful in Britain (at least) already. (Wood had quite a bit of success after splitting with _ELO_, too, as a solo artist and with his new band _Wizard_. Initially, he was probably the more successful.) That matches with what I’ve always read about the early years of ELO, as well. If anything, Wood was seen as the prime creative force behind The Move and ELO. In fact, Lynne was a fairly late addition to The Move, and apparently a big part of his incentive to join The Move was the ELO side project. It sounds like there were increasing tensions between Wood and Lynne (related to management) after the release of ELO’s first album. And, rather than Wood being “kicked out”, it sounds more like it was a bit of a divorce. Wood split off to form Wizzard (taking several ELO members with him), leaving Lynne with the remaining members of the band, including the other ELO founder (and the only other remaining member of The Move) Bev Bevan. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/104 "2013-12-09T22:58:04Z")
Pantera parted ways with their original singer Terry Glaze and hired Phil Anselmo to take the music in a heavier direction. With Anselmo on board they released several platinum albums. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/105 "2013-12-09T23:08:04Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I know that. What’s your point? > > They knew Ringo and they knew he was a better drummer than Pete. So quite a bit later, when they were about about to get auditioned for a recording contract, and were afraid Pete’s weak drumming might blow it for them (and when they also had something to offer Ringo that they didn’t before: a shot at the big time beyond Liverpool) they dumped Pete and recruited Ringo. Makes sense to me. Two opinions: They had been getting more and more successful _in spite of_ Pete Best who was a mediocre drummer at best, and whose personality was not fitting in with the other three. Also- On at least two occasions Ringo sat in for absent Pete with the Hamburg Beatles, and the differences had to have been glaringly obvious. Of course I forget where I saw this- possibly the Anthology DVD. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/106 "2013-12-10T05:37:44Z")
> [@doverpro](#): > > I remember reading something years ago that Stewart remained a full member of the band, only not in the Stones’ public persona. He received a full share of the band’s royalties, he played piano for them in the studio and on stage, and was their full-time road manager. [quote=“TreacherousCretin, post:96, topic:675666”] > [@doverpro](#): > > Wow. I’ve never heard this before. Thank you. I tip my hat in your direction. Clarification: the news to me was Stewart’s full-share group member status (which lessens my outrage considerably). I knew, of course, about his role as stage and studio musician and road manager. Thanks. I feel better now. I was afraid I’d presented myself as an utter simpleton. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/107 "2013-12-10T06:01:59Z")
> [@doverpro](#): > > I remember reading something years ago that Stewart remained a full member of the band, only not in the Stones’ public persona. He received a full share of the band’s royalties, he played piano for them in the studio and on stage, and was their full-time road manager. Do you have a cite for that? I have never heard it before, and although I know he played with them sometimes, he certainly didn’t always, either in studio or on stage. They used other pianists. I saw them in '71 with Nicky Hopkins on piano, for instance. Many articles about The Stones never even mention Stewart (though others do). ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/108 "2013-12-10T06:15:19Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Two opinions: > They had been getting more and more successful _in spite of_ Pete Best who was a mediocre drummer at best, and whose personality was not fitting in with the other three. > Also- On at least two occasions Ringo sat in for absent Pete with the Hamburg Beatles, and the differences had to have been glaringly obvious. > > Of course I forget where I saw this- possibly the Anthology DVD. I don’t think we are disagreeing. My point was that it was more about musicianship than “fitting in”, after **For You** claimed it was mostly about fitting in, and even seemed to imply Pete might have been the better drummer. (I am not denying that fitting in probably played a role too.) I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was tough decision for Ringo to leave _The Hurricanes_, who were possibly even more popular than _The Beatles_ in Liverpool at the time, and maybe on the verge of the big time themselves. _The Beatles_ had Epstein behind them, though, and I guess once _The Hurricanes_ lost Ringo they were screwed. ---
**Author:** ![doverpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@doverpro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doverpro)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/109 "2013-12-10T21:24:59Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? I have never heard it before, and although I know he played with them sometimes, he certainly didn’t always, either in studio or on stage. They used other pianists. I saw them in '71 with Nicky Hopkins on piano, for instance. Many articles about The Stones never even mention Stewart (though others do). No cite. It’s something I read about the Stones some time ago that has stuck with me because it was a piece of the Stones’ history that I had never come across before. It might have been something along the lines of “Ian Stewart - The Unknown Stone” kind of article. Wish I could be more helpful. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/110 "2013-12-10T21:30:05Z")
> [@doverpro](#): > > No cite. It’s something I read about the Stones some time ago that has stuck with me because it was a piece of the Stones’ history that I had never come across before. It might have been something along the lines of “Ian Stewart - The Unknown Stone” kind of article. Wish I could be more helpful. No - it happened - well, I haven’t read that he got royalties or anything - not sure about that at all. But he was a regular player and associate until he died. Stu Stewart - you know Led Zep’s song “Boogie with Stu” off Physical Graffiti? That’s him jamming with the boys - played with the Stones until Andrew Loog Oldham “repositioned” him to be their road manager and occasional keyboardist. I read ALO’s autobiography Stoned and recall he was mentioned, but don’t recall reading anything about Stewart that wasn’t already known. Keith discusses Stewart in his autobiography, but again, I don’t recall anything counter to the basic story - but Keith clear loved Stewart, as did most of the folks who knew him, apparently… ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/111 "2013-12-10T22:00:36Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > No - it happened - well, I haven’t read that he got royalties or anything - not sure about that at all. But he was a regular player and associate until he died. Oh that much is well known, I think. What I was questioning (and still question) was **doverpro** ’s claim that he > [@](#): > > remained a full member of the band, only not in the Stones’ public persona. He received a full share of the band’s royalties Those claims go well beyond the fact that he remained closely professionally associated with the band, and sometimes still played piano for them. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/112 "2013-12-10T23:28:02Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I don’t think we are disagreeing… Correct. I was agreeing with your statement and adding my own 2¢ to it. Peace, Brother or Sister. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/113 "2013-12-10T23:36:47Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Oh that much is well known, I think. What I was questioning (and still question) was **doverpro** ’s claim that he > Those claims go well beyond the fact that he remained closely professionally associated with the band, and sometimes still played piano for them. Yeah; I can’t recall hearing that at all… ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/114 "2013-12-11T02:44:52Z")
Well, he would have continued to collect royalties on songs where he had writing credits, right? Either way. IIUC, he was included in the pseudonymous collective songwriting credit of “Nanker Phelge,” which was used when all of the Stones together contributed to writing a song. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/115 "2013-12-11T05:35:40Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Well, he would have continued to collect royalties on songs where he had writing credits, right? Either way. IIUC, he was included in the pseudonymous collective songwriting credit of “Nanker Phelge,” which was used when all of the Stones together contributed to writing a song. Which applies to how many recorded songs? ---
**Author:** ![doverpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@doverpro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doverpro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/116 "2013-12-11T17:39:47Z")
OK, I’m going to step back away from my claim of “full royalties” as I absolutely cannot back that up. However, I DID read an article and I believe now that what I should have said was that Ian was a full and equal partner in the Rolling Stones (corporate version). I also recall the the article stating that at that time Ron Wood had only recently been made a full and equal partner. I really wish I could back this up with a cite, but like I’ve been saying, it’s something I read and it stuck with me. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/117 "2013-12-11T18:41:53Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Creative differences? Its hard to say if there was a firing because they are all just damn polite when talking about it. There were problems with him delivering the music he was supposed to. But he also had health issues including diabetes that hindered him from being in a touring band. Geddy Lee was the original bass player either. > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > By all accounts, he quit by mutual decision. Creative differences were part of it, but the main reason was because he was a Type 1 diabetic who did well as long as he wasn’t touring and engaging in the erratic lifestyle that went along with it. This was not revealed until after his death in 2008, from complications of that disease. ☹ > [@Infovore](#): > > I also remember reading somewhere (I don’t have a cite offhand but might be able track one down if pressed) that Geddy and Alex wanted to move beyond being a simple three-chord bar band, and Rutsey either didn’t have the chops or simply didn’t want to be bothered to play more complicated rhythms, so they parted company partially for that reason. > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > From the Documentary, _Beyond the Lighted Stage_, they said it purely health reasons. It was made after Rutsey’s death, and maybe they were BSing, but the tour manager at the time was interviewed and said they didn’t think he would _survive_ a tour of the States. Geddy and Alex aren’t the type to speak ill of anybody, but the band’s manager, Ray Davies, tactfully explained that Rutsey was a little too interested in the “rock & roll lifestyle”, i.e. booze and partying. That, in combination with his diabetes, convinced Davies that touring wouldn’t be good for Rutsey, and he suggested replacing him. And I can see how Rutsey would have also been out of place on the road with Lee & Lifeson. I think it was Lifeson who mentioned that a major benefit of touring with bands like KISS and Aerosmith was learning “how _not_ to behave on the road”. As for Geddy not being the original bass player/singer, that’s technically true. But he and Alex had been playing together in various bands for some time. The guys were still in high school when Alex formed Rush in 1968, with Jeff Jones on bass/vocals. He and Geddy were 15 years old, and it wouldn’t surprise me if Geddy was left out of the original lineup simply because he and Alex were having a teenage argument at the time. An argument that was settled/forgiven soon after, as Geddy replaced Jones only a month or so later. Judas Priest canned original singer Al Atkins on the advice of their record company, replacing him with bassist Ian Hill’s brother-in-law, Rob Halford, prior to recording their first album. Good move. Of course, JP has been through a lot of lineup changes, mostly involving drummers. But Ian Hill is the sole remaining founding member. He and K.K. Downing formed the original band; Halford was added as mentioned above, and guitarist Glenn Tipton joined when the record company suggested adding a second guitarist to make the band stand out in an era when most heavy bands had just one guitarist. Downing retired a few years ago, leaving Hill as the only “original” member. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/118 "2013-12-11T19:02:51Z")
> [@doverpro](#): > > OK, I’m going to step back away from my claim of “full royalties” as I absolutely cannot back that up. However, I DID read an article and I believe now that what I should have said was that Ian was a full and equal partner in the Rolling Stones (corporate version). I also recall the the article stating that at that time Ron Wood had only recently been made a full and equal partner. I really wish I could back this up with a cite, but like I’ve been saying, it’s something I read and it stuck with me. I can’t back you up on the Ian Stewart claim, but I do know that Ron Wood was only made a full member of the Rolling Stones financial organization in 1990. To be honest, it seems that they treat anyone who wasn’t there in the beginning pretty badly. Mick Taylor wasn’t ever a full member, and he was the best guitarist that ever toured with them. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/119 "2013-12-11T20:28:21Z")
> [@doverpro](#): > > OK, I’m going to step back away from my claim of “full royalties” as I absolutely cannot back that up. However, I DID read an article and I believe now that what I should have said was that Ian was a full and equal partner in the Rolling Stones (corporate version). I also recall the the article stating that at that time Ron Wood had only recently been made a full and equal partner. I really wish I could back this up with a cite, but like I’ve been saying, it’s something I read and it stuck with me. Fair enough, but if you do remember any more details please share them. I find your original assertion plausible, if only because of how warmly Keith has always spoken of Ian. Hard to reconcile his praise for the man with how terribly they apparently treated him. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666/120 "2013-12-11T22:17:06Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Which applies to how many recorded songs? If Wikipedia is to be trusted, there were 15 songs credited to Nanker Phelge, but only two of those songs distributed any royalties to Ian Stewart: “Stoned” and “Little by Little.” Neither of those was a hit single, but presumably Stewart made some money on album sales. > **[Nanker Phelge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanker_Phelge)** > > Nanker Phelge (also known as Nanker-Phelge) was a collective pseudonym used between 1963 and 1965 for several Rolling Stones group compositions. According to manager Andrew Loog Oldham the 'Nanker Phelge' credit was mostly used for tracks where the origin lay in blues standards from the 1950s they heard when visiting the Chess studios in Chicago. It also enabled Oldham to benefit from writing credits. > Stones bassist Bill Wyman explained the origins of the name in his 2002 book, Rolling with the ... Of all the Nanker Phelge songs, the only one you’re ever likely to hear on the radio any more is “Play With Fire.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bands-that-booted-an-original-member-before-hitting-it-big/675666.md?page=7)