# BANG BANG THE WITCH IS DEAD!!!!!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 11, 2001, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411 "2001-06-11T12:45:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/1 "2001-06-11T12:45:35Z")
[http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010611/08/news-mcveigh](http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010611/08/news-mcveigh) A tribute, if I may, to the families of the victims and children that died in this senseless, evil act of terrorism. While this obviously will never bring their loved ones back, or relieve their pain, hopefully they can feel like they have been given just a little bit of justice for all their sufferening. Timothy McVeigh is not a hero, not a tragic figure, and NOT a symbol of the argument against the death penalty. He was a despicable monster that killed innocent women, children and men in the most chilling, cold blooded way possible. This planet is a much better place without him. The only bad news is that I’ll have to listen to Bono whine about this all night at his concert. Oh well. At least since I don’t kill people, I’ll get to see the show while McVeigh’s sorry ass will be getting put six fee under. Goodbye, scumbag!!! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/2 "2001-06-11T13:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Timothy McVeigh is not a hero, not a tragic figure, and NOT a symbol of the argument against the death penalty. You are correct. The glee in another human being’s death that so many Americans are expressing today, however, is both a symbol and an argument against the death penalty. I do not, of course, expect that it is one you will find convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/3 "2001-06-11T13:16:27Z")
I agree with Spiritus. Vinnie, killing a human being is an ugly business. _Always_. Sometimes it has to be done, but that doesn’t mean we should take any pleasure from it. ---
**Author:** ![BooBoo316](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@BooBoo316](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BooBoo316)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/4 "2001-06-11T13:18:59Z")
Me either, Spiritus. Got exactly what he deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/5 "2001-06-11T13:34:49Z")
On second thought, actually I don’t feel any glee. The guy never even expressed remorse, [http://news.excite.ca/news/cp/010610/22/mcveigh-in-good](http://news.excite.ca/news/cp/010610/22/mcveigh-in-good) and frankly got to die in a lot more humane fashion than his 168 victims, so maybe I should feel sad- sad that he didn’t die in a more vicous way. If it were up to me, I would electrocute and revive him 169 times, to make the score, using his sick and twisted logic, 169-168. I don’t remember any of those little kids getting a last meal of ice cream before they were blown to bits. But if you are to ask me if I feel good he is no longer in this earth, well, yeah, I do feel good about that! ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/6 "2001-06-11T13:51:04Z")
I don’t support the death penelty. I do think that glee in the death of a thing like McVeigh is understandable. When you get so much ripped away from you in the blink of an eye, for the most fucked up reason imaginable, it screws up your emotional responses. Reveling in his death today, and then later understanding that it changed nothing is a good step in them “letting go” and moving on with their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/7 "2001-06-11T14:01:51Z")
I’ve had problems with this issue. I’m very much anti-death penalty, but something inside told me that there was just something different about this case. I had dismissed it, telling myself that there is no difference between vengeance for 1 murder versus vengeance for 168 murders - which is true. But I figured it out this morning. I saw an interview with a man whose father was killed in OK City. He was not attending the execution, and didn’t express any joy over McVeigh’s soon-to-be death, but he and his family were looking forward to the silence. The silence. Very interesting. Now, my current view of the death penalty is that it solves no more than a locked-up-for-life sentence does. In fact, it solves less, as society and its government become killers as well (IMO). But as a member of this society, I look at a murderer and say that I don’t want that person in my society anymore. I think as a society we have that right. Not only do I not want these people in my society, I don’t want to hear from them. And here is where the situation with Timothy McVeigh becomes different. Someone connected with a victim (whose murderer is given a life sentence) in an “ordinary” murder can easily escape any mention of the killer. After a certain amount of time, society will forget this person’s name, and allow those involved to move on. But had Timothy McVeigh been allowed to live, we would never hear the end of this. He would constantly be popping up - an interview here, a quote there. And with 168 people dead, hundreds injured, and their families to think about, there is absolutely no way to guarantee these people the silence the man I saw on television speak of. So, silence it is. I know that this isn’t the end of it, we will hear the name McVeigh hundreds, maybe thousands, of times before we die, there will be 60 Minutes pieces on this, there will be a Time magazine article in 10 years giving us the update on the victims’ families, etc. Or maybe I’m completely wrong. Maybe silence is the exact opposite prescription for this malody. Maybe we need to be constantly reminded of the possible horrors we face in this world. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/8 "2001-06-11T14:04:18Z")
I think it is sad and troubling that we don’t yet have much of an idea how to prevent the social circumstances that interacted with the person Timothy McVeigh with the resulting terrorist act. (Not to say society “did it”, but that Timothy McVeigh under probably most other circumstances would not have done what he did). I think it is sad and troubling that we don’t have any effective solutions for what to do with such a dangerous and socially disruptive persons that would allow us to live with them in peace and security. Therefore I find it a somber occasion, this execution, but for the moment I think it is a reasonable and necessary way of addressing the problem. We would be doing neither ourselves nor Timothy McVeigh any favors by providing him with life imprisonment in a Federal cage. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/9 "2001-06-11T14:05:47Z")
[nitpick] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vinnie Virginslayer \* > **McVeigh’s sorry ass will be getting put six fee under.** MSNBC just mentioned that McVeigh will be cremated. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrison_s_Lament)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/10 "2001-06-11T14:09:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Timothy McVeigh is not a hero, not a tragic figure, and NOT a symbol of the argument against the death penalty. > > You are correct. > > The glee in another human being’s death that so many Americans are expressing today, however, is both a symbol and an argument against the death penalty. > > I do not, of course, expect that it is one you will find convincing. \*\* Well said, very well said. I really hope CNN is right in saying that support for capital punishment is decreasing. — G. Raven ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/11 "2001-06-11T14:10:35Z")
Timothy McVeigh WAs a human being, not a monster. To dehumanize McVeigh is to diminsh the impact of his crimes. It’s easy to label someone as a monster, to make him a thing, and not a person. But that takes away the horror that someone so ordinary and before that April day, even likeable, could do something so unimaginably awful. Even if you believe that state-sponsored vengeance is morally correct, taking joy in a person’s death is wrong. Maybe his death is justified; I don’t know. I feel sad for the people he killed, for the families dealing with their pain, and for his family who will bear the disgrace of being related to McVeigh. Evil is a human thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/12 "2001-06-11T14:13:30Z")
It’s with the grim satisfaction of seeing an unpleasant task done well, that I note that the mad dog known as T. McVeigh was put down this morning. Lets get on with our lives now. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/13 "2001-06-11T14:16:54Z")
You know it’s such a cliche, but I keep thinking that somebody loved him. Somebody held him as a baby when he cried, told him stories, comforted him. At some point he must have returned that love and comfort he received and made somebody very happy. I think it was proper that he is dead now, but I feel terribly uneasy about the whole thing. We haven’t just killed the evil bomber, we’ve also killed the parts of that person that brought joy and love. It also seems clear that he did not act alone. Within his mind are the names of the people that helped him. Perhaps he was not the mastermind, but a gullible fanatic. In destroying that mind we have a irretrievably closed a route to finding these others. Perhaps we rest easy thinking that it is ended, but the ones that helped him are still out there, so that ease is unjustified. The fool went to his death believing in what he had done. I regret that he escaped the punishment of guilt and remorse, that he should have felt. I regret that his mind is now shut to us. He had knowledge we should have, and we should have gotten it. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/14 "2001-06-11T14:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > …killing a human being is an ugly business. _Always_. > > Sometimes it has to be done, but that doesn’t mean we should take any pleasure from it. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by goboy_ > Even if you believe that state-sponsored vengeance is morally correct, taking joy in a person’s death is wrong. I am not ashamed to admit that I am very glad that he is dead. I’m glad they killed him, I’m glad he’s gone, and next time I have a drink I’ll toast for his sorry ass being dead and for our system that still allows us to put down shitlickers like him. I am not here to blindly defend the death penalty, because I realize there are some problems with it. However, in cut and dry cases like these, I’m happy we have it. Although, I do think that he should have been blown up instead of given a lethal injection. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/15 "2001-06-11T14:44:24Z")
I am in favor of the death penelty. McVeigh deserved to die. I would have injected the death drugs myself. That being said, to feel glee over this is sick. Not even close to as sick as McVeigh’s act of terror. Not even in the same ball park of sickness but sick never the less. Putting someone to death is doing a horrible thing that has to be done. It’s like putting a sick dog to sleep. There should be no joy in that. Haj ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/16 "2001-06-11T14:44:54Z")
In our little e-mail group here in Podunk, I drafted an e-mail last night concerning the execution and my feelings on it. Ogre can confirm that in the past, I’ve been a pretty staunch supporter of the death penalty… so my feelings currently are going to take some sorting through… anyway, here it is: > [@](#): > > Well, I imagine by the time most of us read this, Timothy McVeigh will be dead. Part of me is very happy at the prospect of him being gone… another part of me is now doubting my position on the death penalty. Odd that, eh? The main problem for me is that through the extensive coverage that he has received … the interviews … his letters… he has gone from being just “the enemy” to being a human being. Throughout history, the best way to remove the disdain most people feel towards killing another human has been to remove their humanity - for instance, if the Jews are rodents, why mind killing rodents (even if they are metaphorical rodents)? And much of the media has done the same to Timothy McVeigh - he’s a monster, pure evil, a traitorous piece of garbage, but I rarely hear of him referred to as a human about to die. > > Anyway, it’s been very easy in the past to sit back and be an armchair executioner for faceless criminals who we know only by their horrific deeds - it becomes something altogether different for me when the criminal has a face, a past, a family, and the same mix of power for great good and great evil which lies within us all. > > Perhaps it’s this duality that is clouding my thoughts on the matter - the darker side of my humanity is thrilled to see revenge in action, to see justice being carried out no matter the finality of it. On the other hand, the compassionate side of me sees, or wants to see, beyond this one act of terrorism into the life of Timothy McVeigh. And yes, I realize that every single one of his victims had a life of their own - had untold potential - and that he snuffed it out with a truck full of fertilizer and a misguided sense of what was right. > > In a similar vein, I’m not sure what this ultimate penalty accomplishes. It doesn’t bring back the dead. There is no great scale of right or wrong which will now be tipped back into a precarious balance courtesy of his death. And, from what I’ve heard, there is no sense of closure for the families - nothing makes you forget the life of a loved one that was taken from you. I am also thinking of people, myself included, when told that the death penalty isn’t a deterrent, that reply “Well, no one executed has ever committed any more crimes” - and each time I’ve said it, or heard it said, there’s been an underlying hint of a chuckle falling somewhere between cynicism and downright meanness. That bothers me. > > Oh well, what’s done is done and by the time these words grace your monitors, Timothy McVeigh will only exist in our heads, and so will my doubts. > > Sigh. As this is the Pit, I’m sure some knucklehead will flame away, call me a liberal pansy, and assorted other childishness. And to that I say _YAWN_. ---
**Author:** ![They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/They_Call_Me_Sneeze)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/17 "2001-06-11T14:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\*But as a member of this society, I look at a murderer and say that I don’t want that person in my society anymore. I think as a society we have that right. Not only do I not want these people in my society, I don’t want to hear from them. > \*\* Murder is murder, no matter if it is sanctioned by society, the government, or the pope. (Not saying that that is the kind of thing the pope does, of course.) I dont think that society should _ever_ have the _right_ to commit immoral acts. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Morrison’s Lament \* > \*\* > I really hope CNN is right in saying that support for capital punishment > is decreasing. > > \*\* Me too. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/18 "2001-06-11T14:48:20Z")
Once again **Spiritus** reaches into my heart and finds the best way of expressing what I am feeling. Lots of intelligent things have been said already in this thread. **Scylla** and **goboy** also said very well things that were in my mind. But I still feel like I want to say something. Kill the man that killed others? Another will take his place. Kill him too? Why not just kill everyone and invade Poland? I don’t know. If the best revenge to a personal injustice is to live your life well then maybe the best revenge to a social injustice is to make the perpetrator of the injustice live _his_ life well. Then he might realise the horror of what he has done and have to live with it every day. Sometimes you have to be kind to be cruel. Killing someone, especially killing someone and revelling in it, just brings you down to their level. And when it is done, _nothing_ has changed and _nothing_ is better. They no longer have to deal with this reality. But we still do. pan ---
**Author:** ![They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/They_Call_Me_Sneeze)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/19 "2001-06-11T14:52:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hajario \* > \*\* > > Putting someone to death is doing a horrible thing that has to be done. It’s like putting a sick dog to sleep. There should be no joy in that. > > Haj \*\* No. Putting a sick dog to sleep would be like doing a Dr. Kevorkian. Killing a person because of crimes they have committed is more similar to having a dog ‘put down’ because it bit someone. And even then it’s not a great analogy (in my opinion). You’re right about the “no joy” part, though. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/20 "2001-06-11T14:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by They Call Me Sneeze \* > \*\* > > Murder is murder, no matter if it is sanctioned by society, the government, or the pope. (Not saying that that is the kind of thing the pope does, of course.) > > I dont think that society should _ever_ have the _right_ to commit immoral acts. > > \*\* By that token, **They Call Me Sneeze** , isn’t imprisonment immoral? After all, if I were to snatch you off the street and lock you in a room for twenty years, wouldn’t that be immoral too? Yet, I’ll assume for the moment (and correct me if I’m wrong) you do support the need for incarceration and support the government’s right to imprision people for crimes, correct? Zev Steinhardt [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411.md?page=2)