# BANG BANG THE WITCH IS DEAD!!!!!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 11, 2001, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411 "2001-06-11T12:45:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/41 "2001-06-11T16:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > Why bother **mouthbreather**? Purely because I don’t measure **my** humanity by **their** actions. > > pan Call me thick, but I’m missing your point. Are you saying that I do? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > Tell me, what is the difference between you, who can enthusiastically enjoy the death of a human being, and Timothy McVeigh, who emotionlessly killed 168 human beings? The difference is, I am glad that a person who killed 168 INNOCENT people is dead. You’re certainly not suggesting I take pleasure in every instance of death? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \*If you can say that you’ve always reacted perfectly to life’s trials then you’re excused from reading the rest of this post. I am not claiming I am perfect. I am however, able to differentiate between screwing up and screwing up and leaving hundreds dead because I “reacted poorly”. Also, as a footnote, I do have to get some work done today, and this thread is starting to snowball. Anyone who wants to discuss this, I’ll get to your points but it may not be as immediate as I have been so far this morning. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/42 "2001-06-11T17:04:42Z")
No surprise to thems what know me, but I am torn between both sides of this argument. I saw a Buddhist monk on TV who regretted that McVeigh will not have the opportunity to realize the enormity of his crime and work to make as much restitution as he could. OTOH, he had six years to do it and did not. Like shooting a rabid dog, I regret that it was necessary, but take no glee in it. My own state has put all executions on hold because of problems of guilt and innocence. That is not a question here, so I prefer Wisconsin’s method of executing Jeffrey Dahmer: sentence him to life and put him in General Population. Cheap and relatively fast. (How long did he last before he was knifed in the shower–two or three years? Much shorter than an appeal process.) ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/43 "2001-06-11T17:20:31Z")
McVeigh does not regret his actions, and since he does not killing him will only bring more people to repeat them. Executions are not a punishment to some and they encourage those people to do something horrible to get attention and then die. Because McVeigh wanted to die we are rewarding him instead of punishing him for his actions. McVeigh ceased to be a threat after he was in prison, what was done now only matters to the next person who kills people for the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/44 "2001-06-11T17:36:48Z")
With his near-final act, Timothy McVeigh may well have performed a valuable service for humanity. His final written statement was the poem “Invictus”, by W. E. Henley. Many American students are to this day forced to memorize this plodding statement of unfocused defiance. Judging from past experience, I give it seventy-two hours before someone begins vocally demanding that Henley’s annoying poem be forever banned from being taught in school systems nationwide. Good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/45 "2001-06-11T17:36:57Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* \*\* > [@](#): > > **He is, however, a very tragic figure, and he is a symbol of the argument against the death penalty. The tragedy is not just the fact that he died; the tragedy is that Timothy McVeigh was just like you. Tell me, what is the difference between you, who can enthusiastically enjoy the death of a human being, and Timothy McVeigh, who emotionlessly killed 168 human beings?** \*\* After reading your post, I understand where you are coming from. However Quix I find your comparison between Timothy McVeigh and me personally insulting. I’ll give you ONE difference between us: I don’t go around blowing up innocent people. I think that’s difference enough. Trust me, Timothy McVeigh is NOT just like me. The fact that he is- um WAS so unemotional about what he did is a hell of a lot more despicable reaction than me showing glee. Glee that at least a little justice was done for the victims and their families, and that someone who committed a hideous act paid the price, even if I don’t think it was enough of a price. If the guy had expressed any true regret (and not that there was “collateral damage” or that he regrets children died when he knew damn well there was a full daycare center in the building), I might feel a little bit sorry for him but I won’t. And believe me, I bet there is a hell of a lot of difference between Timothy McVeigh and the families in Oklahoma who lost loved ones and friends in the blast. \*\* > [@](#): > > I had a friend in high school who looks a hell of a lot like Timothy McVeigh. They even have the same smile. So whenever I see news reports, I think of my friend. And I feel that’s hauntingly appropriate, because it very well **could** have been my friend who bombed that federal building. It could have been your friend, or that poster’s brother, or that guy over there’s son.\*\* Somehow, I doubt your friend is in his basement making fertilizer bombs, no matter what he looks like, but if he is, I hope you would do the right thing, put your friendship aside, and call the police. By the way, if my friend or brother committed that horrible act, he would no longer be my friend or brother. \*\* > [@](#): > > Timothy McVeigh did not have some sort of genetic code that compelled him to do evil. He wasn’t an alien half-breed dedicated to destroying the Earth. He was a person who reacted poorly (ok, that’s an understatement, but that’s still the essence) to the shitty circumstances life threw at him. If you can say that you’ve always reacted to life’s trials, then you’re excused from reading the rest of this post.\*\* Saying that was an understatement IS an understatement! :rolleyes: Saying that killing 168 people “reacted poorly” to his circumstances, and then trying to compare that to any ways in which I might have reacted poorly to mine, is simply not comparing apples to apples. I’ve had troubles in my life, but I responded to those issues by not only NOT breaking the law, but NOT killing people, and trying to do something POSITIVE in my life without hurting others! I would be willing to bet you any amount of money that there are many, many Americans who have had similar upbringing, situations, whatever as McVeigh, and found more productive ways to express their displeasure with the government or deal with their own personal problems. There’s no way you are going to convince me that this ass clown was a “tragic American figure, just like you or me”. \*\* > [@](#): > > Contrary to what you say, **Vinnie** , McVeigh was not some despicable monster. He was a person who acted despicably, like we all have at some time or another.\*\* Again, I repeat, your statement “He was a person who acted despicably, like we all have at some time or another.” implies that someone drinking alcohol, taking pills, or putting their fist through the wall, or even something as despicable as stealing money, is the same as what McVeigh did. It’s a ridiculous point because what McVeigh did is such a heinous atrocity and act, that I just don’t see how you can make any comparison. And yes, anyone that murders 168 of his own countrymen in cold blood is an evil monster and contemptible human being that deserves to be put to death, just like a mad dog. \*\* > [@](#): > > Do whatever it takes to remind you of his humanity. If it helps to think that his buddies used to call him Timmy, do that. I would wager $1000 that he cried during the night before his death. If his fearful tears help you to remember that he was a person, remember them. Remember his parents, who still have to live with kicking themselves and wondering what they did wrong. It’s comforting to label him as “Not-me,” but that’s just a smokescreen.\*\* I do feel sorry for the guy’s friends, parents, and relatives. But based on McVeigh’s remarks, such as the “168-1” comment, if Little Timmy shed any tears, I would guess it was because he regretted not being free to kill some more, not that he was going to die. And if he was crying because he was scared to die, then good. Those little children in that daycare center had NO time to shed tears before they were blown to bits. If you want to talk “humanity”, let us never lose sight of the 168 victims, or the people who didn’t get killed and are crippled for life thanks to this creep. Let’s talk about THAT humanity. \*\* > [@](#): > > Timothy McVeigh is a symbol against the death penalty because if he’s not, then neither are you.\*\* I don’t quite understand what that meant. Look, if you want to point out the DNA controversy, a retarded kid getting executed, as examples of darker side of capital punishment, I might be swayed to the other side in those cases. But this is such a clear case of good vs. evil, of someone committing not only an act of complete horror, but also a treasonous act against our country, I will not be swayed in this case. Timothy McVeigh was an evil man who showed no remorse for what he did before he died. I understand overall what you are trying to say, and you make some arguably good points, but I simply object to the “Timothy McVeigh is everyman” argument. Timothy McVeigh is NOT someone I identify with or feel sympathy for in any way. People who murder, are NOT normal, not good, and deserve to be removed from society so those of us who don’t go around setting off bombs can live in peace. Maybe there is one tragedy about putting the man to death- he never seemed to look back and regret what he had done, even in the face of his own judgement. Fortunately, we were able to get him off this earth before he could tell us one more time how NOT sorry he was. May God have mercy on his soul. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/46 "2001-06-11T18:43:08Z")
[minor hijack] I’m reminded of a line from _The Dead Zone_ by Steven King, wherein the main character asks his shrink if, knowing what he knows now, if he had the chance, would he kill Hitler before he rose to power. The (paraphrased) answer rings through my head: “I am a lover of humanity, and I have a deep respect all human life. Therefore I can say without any equivocation… that I would kill the son of a bitch.” I’m wondering if those here who don’t favor McVeigh’s death today would kill him if they had the chance _before_ he got in that van (if you wish to seriously consider this thought exercise, let’s assume you had a choice to either kill him or let him get away and do the deed; that there is no other option in preventing the mass murder). Similarly, I think it shows a lack of respect of life and the living to let a killer live. [/minor hijack] ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/47 "2001-06-11T19:13:28Z")
> [@](#): > > . He was a person who acted dispiciably, like we all have at some time or another. Do whatever it takes to remind you of his humanity. If it helps to think that his buddies used to call him Timmy, do that. I would wager $1000 that he cried during the night before his death. If his fearful tears help you to remember that he was a person, remember them. Remember his parents, who still have to live with kicking themselves and wondering what they did wrong. It’s comforting to label him as “Not-me,” but that’s just a smokescreen. Unfuckingbelieveable. Lets all start feeling sorry for poor little Timmy helpless victim of circumstances. Where the fuck do you get-off saying everybody else is just like him. He fucking killed 168 people. 168 innocent people many of whom were children. Every fibre of my being screams out just how much “Not-me” he is. If you really feel such sympathy towardhim , and lack of difference between you and him, then you have a serious need for some real soul-searching. Even the pit is completely inapropriate to express the anger I feel towards that kind of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/48 "2001-06-11T19:16:50Z")
**Mouthbreather** , you can take this response to **Vinnie** as a response to you as well, since I’d say the same thing to both of you. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vinnie Virginslayer \* > **After reading your post, I understand where you are coming from. However Quix I find your comparison between Timothy McVeigh and me personally insulting.** It is insulting to compare you to Timothy McVeigh. But I’m not insulting you personally; I’m insulting EVERYONE (although, in particular, those who exulted in Tim’s death). The gist of my post was that there’s a little Timothy McVeigh in all of us… I’ll expound as I go on. \*\* > [@](#): > > I’ll give you ONE difference between us: I don’t go around blowing up innocent people. I think that’s difference enough.\*\* You’re right, you haven’t blown up any buildings. I’m just saying that everyone has to be wary of a slippery slope. I’m saying that the gap between “That fucker deserved to die” and “THAT fucker over THERE deserves to die, and I’m going to personally kill him” is not as insurmountable as you might think. \*\* > [@](#): > > Glee that at least a little justice was done for the victims and their families, and that someone who committed a hideous act paid the price, even if I don’t think it was enough of a price.\*\* Your rationalization for your glee is justice and righteousness. McVeigh’s rationalization was also justice and righteousness, retribution for Waco and Ruby Ridge. Do I condone his actions? Of course not. But I see your rationalization almost as worthless as his. \*\* > [@](#): > > And believe me, I bet there is a hell of a lot of difference between Timothy McVeigh and the families in Oklahoma who lost loved ones and friends in the blast.\*\* I can’t pretend to know what the surviving victims are going through. But again, I contend there isn’t some yawning chasm of morality between a person who would kill, and a person who would cheer a killing. \*\* > [@](#): > > Somehow, I doubt your friend is in his basement making fertilizer bombs, no matter what he looks like, but if he is, I hope you would do the right thing, put your friendship aside, and call the police. By the way, if my friend or brother committed that horrible act, he would no longer be my friend or brother.\*\* You missed the point of me mentioning my friend. I put it forth as “This is how I keep in mind that Timothy McVeigh was a person, YMMV.” \*\* > [@](#): > > I’ve had troubles in my life, but I responded to those issues by not only NOT breaking the law, but NOT killing people, and trying to do something POSITIVE in my life without hurting others!\*\* I don’t think it’d be an overstatement if I said the Timothy McVeigh ordeal has been a stress on most Americans. I see you reacting poorly to this stress, not by doing something “positive.” \*\* > [@](#): > > I would be willing to bet you any amount of money that there are many, many Americans who have had similar upbringing, situations, whatever as McVeigh, and found more productive ways to express their displeasure with the government or deal with their own personal problems.\*\* But that’s precisely the scariest part about Timothy McVeigh. We’ve all been dealt shit in life, so there’s the possibility for ANY of us to become homicidally violent. \*\* > [@](#): > > It’s a ridiculous point because what McVeigh did is such a heinous atrocity and act, that I just don’t see how you can make any comparison.\*\* I’m, in particular, making the comparison between killing and vicariously enjoying killing. I don’t think that’s an entirely invalid comparison. \*\* > [@](#): > > If you want to talk “humanity”, let us never lose sight of the 168 victims, or the people who didn’t get killed and are crippled for life thanks to this creep. Let’s talk about THAT humanity.\*\* I agree. The events in Oklahoma City were terribly tragic, irrespective of McVeigh’s fate. I’m not saying you should shift your goodwill from the victims over to McVeigh. \*\* > [@](#): > > I understand overall what you are trying to say, and you make some arguably good points, but I simply object to the “Timothy McVeigh is everyman” argument.\*\* Well, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then. By saying “There’s a little seed of Timothy McVeigh in all of us,” I mean that we’re all capable of lashing out violently and negatively. I would categorize “I’m glad that fucker died, even though it’s too good for him” as a violent lashing out. Quix P.S. Boards are too slow for any future responses for a few hours. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/49 "2001-06-11T20:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > He was a person who acted despicably, like we all have at some time or another. > [@](#): > > The gist of my post was that there’s a little Timothy McVeigh in all of us. > [@](#): > > But that’s precisely the scariest part about Timothy McVeigh. We’ve all been dealt shit in life, so there’s the possibility for ANY of us to become homicidally violent. I was going to stay out of this thread due to time restraints, but the quotes above just piss me off. I can speak for anyone else, but I am pretty sure that I haven’t acted despicable “at some time or another” and murdered 168 innocent people. There is nothing in me that even remotely resembles little “Timmy”, and it is insulting that the “gist” of your post even suggests it. The last quote is the topper. First of all, you don’t know that “we’ve all been dealt shit in life”, and secondly, you are highly insulting to insinuate that those who have had a rough lot dealt to them have a possibility of becoming homicidally violent. While I certainly feel no glee in his execution, Timothy McVeigh got exactly what he deserved. I won’t argue the pros and cons of capital punishment, but when you start defending a piece of shit like Timothy McVeigh with comparison to the rest of us or by minimizing the horror that he created by reminding us that his friends called him “Timmy”, you better prepare yourself for the backlash. I don’t really give a shit if he walked little old ladies across the street dressed in his Boy Scout uniform or if he used to kiss his grandma. The day he made the conscience decision to plant a bomb and murder dozens of innocents, is the day he lost his claim as a human being. He deserves no excuses or justifications for what he had done, and he certainly deserves no compassion. You know, I’ll bet that even Charlie Manson and Adolph Hilter were cute babies. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/50 "2001-06-11T20:37:02Z")
Yes, any of us could have committed McVeigh’s atrocity. Yes, any of us could have thought about doing worse. The question is, who gives a shit? Thought is crap. _Potential_ is crap. The only thing that ever matters is action. You may have a dark side the size of Bergen-Belsen, or you may be as clean and pure as St. Michael’s underwear, but when all’s said and done, it doesn’t matter one whit. If there’s something out there that’s keeping a scorecard, the only notes it’s jotting down are the for things you actually _do_. So yes, I could have done the same things he did. And if I had, I’d be just as deserving of justice. To deny accountability is to deny free will. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/51 "2001-06-11T20:54:12Z")
I don’t think **Quixotic78** (aptly named) is saying “poor little Timmy McVeigh,” but rather is saying what I’ve been thinking: what the hell made him into a murderer? Timothy McVeigh didn’t have fangs, three heads, or any outward sign of inward evil. He was a handsome, intelligent man, a perfectly ordinary guy who cold-bloodedly killed 168 people in some twisted jihad against the Feds. McVeigh wasn’t crazy; he was evil, and that’s a helluva scary thing. If you dehumanize him, say he was a monster, you invoke too facile an excuse to conveniently pigeonhole his crime. He was a perfectly ordinary guy, somebody who would have made a good neighbor, never letting on what was inside him. I doubt that anybody on this board could have met him before April 19, 1995, and said, “oh, yeah, he’s a monster.” And that scares me because if a Gulf War vet with no sign of mental illness blows up 168 people, then how can you really trust anyone? ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/52 "2001-06-11T22:54:14Z")
First, let me admit that I only skimmed through the posts on this thread, so if I repeat anyone, sorry. Second, I was there. 6 years ago, I owned and lived in a house on Westchester Drive (4 blocks south of Britton, for those in OKC, just off Western near the Del Rancho). When the bomb went off, I thought someone had driven a car through my garage door–I was only five miles away. Third, I spent 14 hours at the Red Cross evacuation center where they told people to look for others who they couldn’t find…kind of the meet-up point. I saw the blankest faces and emptiest eyes I ever dread to see again and which I still have nightmares about. I finally left to see my two-month old daughter because I couldn’t bear to see any more bereaved parents. I still don’t think they should have killed McVeigh. The ethical hypocracy is, “It’s wrong to kill people. If you do it, we’ll kill you.” My daughter is six now, and we tell her that violence is wrong. If we beat her for being violent, what does that make us as parents? If we kill someone for killing, what does that make us as a society? I admit that I did not know anyone who died in the bombing, nor did I know anyone injured. OKC is a pretty big place. But I don’t think that it is our place, as a society, to make the life-and-death judgement that McVeigh made. Lest anyone thing I’m soft, I think an appropriate punishment would have been to put him in a 3’x3’x7’ room with a little window looking on a playground so he could listen to children laughing and playing for the next 50 years or so. The bastard should have suffered, not been put to an easy death. But if killing people is wrong, it’s wrong. There isn’t a grey area there. People are not rabid dogs, no matter what anyone says. Sorry if this rambles…I’ve been drinking a bit trying to reconcile my ethics with my emotions. Stof. ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/53 "2001-06-11T23:37:58Z")
Someone taking a life is different from someone else taking a life? It’s wrong both ways. I would have preferred him being locked up in solitary until he died. Death cannot be used as a comfort technique. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/54 "2001-06-12T00:41:05Z")
**All There is to Know About Adolph Eichmann** EYES:…Medium HAIR:…Medium WEIGHT:…Medium HEIGHT:…Medium DISTINGUISHING FEATURES:…None NUMBER OF FINGERS:…Ten NUMBER OF TOES:…Ten INTELLIGENCE:…Medium What did you expect? Talons? Oversize incisors? Green saliva? Madness? _-Leonard Cohen_ ---
**Author:** ![\_Uigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/e9a140/32.png) [@\_Uigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Uigi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/55 "2001-06-12T00:56:50Z")
Whadda shame “Ole Sparky” couldn’t have been lit up for the event. TM is (was) a dirtbag scum of the highest order and deserved a far more spectacular send off to his next career in “small real estate” than simple euthanasia. I don’t like the necessity of a death penalty anymore than anyone else…but, I can’t think of anyone that was more deserving of result. ---
**Author:** ![Sultan\_Kinkari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7bcc69/32.png) [@Sultan\_Kinkari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sultan_Kinkari)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/56 "2001-06-12T01:10:21Z")
I agree with stofsky. A couple of years ago I had a good friend kiled during a workplace massacre at the Northlake Shipyard shootings here in Seattle. I miss him and think about him all the time but never once did I ever wish harm upon his murderer. Maybe it was the way I was raised, but I can see that the guy that shot my friend was in a psychotic rage. I would say that he were mentally retarted before I would say he was evil. Just in the way that if a mentally retarted man killed another person; he wouldn’t ever recieve the death penalty. You would say that he lacked better judgement, as opposed to McVeigh, who could surely tell the difference between right or wrong. My point is this, if McVeigh really knew right from wrong, then why did he do it? I would be much more satisfied if he were strapped down and had water dripped on his forehead for the next fifty years. My two cents. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/57 "2001-06-12T01:18:34Z")
**wolfman** > [@](#): > > Every fibre of my being screams out just how much “Not-me” he is. **Diane** > [@](#): > > There is nothing in me that even remotely resembles little “Timmy”, and it is insulting that the “gist” of your post even suggests it. **Vinnie Virginslayer** > [@](#): > > I find your comparison between Timothy McVeigh and me personally insulting. Maybe I shouldn’t compare everyone to Timothy McVeigh, especially total strangers like the three of you. I tell you what, I’ll compare myself to McVeigh, and then you can either: [ul] [li]See what I’m trying to say, and think about it,[/li][li]See what I’m trying to say, and tell me to go fuck myself,[/li][li]Tell me to go fuck myself without seeing what I’m trying to say,[/li][li]Think that I’m like Timothy McVeigh, but you’re not[/li][/ul] Similarities between myself and Timothy McVeigh [ul] [li]We’ve both had shit dealt to us in our lives, unlike **Diane** ; in particular, parental divorce[/li][li]We’ve both reacted violently to the stresses in life[/li][li]We’ve both said “I’m going to kill so-and-so,” although he certainly meant it more than I did[/li][li]We’ve both done things we felt to be right and just, even if we were clouded by anger/rage/stupidity[/li][/ul] Differences between myself and Timothy McVeigh [ul] [li]He has killed 168 people, whereas I haven’t[/li][li]I have expressed glee at a person’s death (i.e., the fucker deserved it), whereas McVeigh, by all accounts, was largely emotionless[/li][/ul] **goboy** said it well: > [@](#): > > If you dehumanize him, say he was a monster, you invoke too facile an excuse to conveniently pigeonhole his crime. There is utterly no excuse for his actions, and any attempt to justify them is insulting. I don’t feel I’ve done that. Fuck you very much, **wolfman** , for this gem which in no way relates to my stance: > [@](#): > > Lets all start feeling sorry for poor little Timmy helpless victim of circumstances. I’m not feeling sorry for him, and he sure as hell was never helpless. Simply put, McVeigh acted monstrously, but it wasn’t because he was a monster. It was because he was a person, and people can act monstrously. Quix ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/58 "2001-06-12T01:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > Thought is crap. _Potential_ is crap. The only thing that ever matters is action. You may have a dark side the size of Bergen-Belsen, or you may be as clean and pure as St. Michael’s underwear, but when all’s said and done, it doesn’t matter one whit. If there’s something out there that’s keeping a scorecard, the only notes it’s jotting down are the for things you actually _do_. A-fucking-men. Action is character, character is action, a person is what they do. Talk of dark sides and contrary inner righteousness and whatnot is, I’m convinced, just that–talk. Usually self-indulgent, melodramatic bullshit. Inner demons and struggles, yadda yadda. It’s a pretty long journey from “gee, I’m having a lousy day” to the deliberate sequence of choices and actions necessary to bomb a building. What made Timmy a monster? Not his thoughts, not whatever pain in his life, not his emotionlessness. His _choices_ made him a monster. And yep, “monster” is–unfortunately–not incompatible with “human.” I’m opposed to the death penalty not out of any sacred-life beliefs, but merely a practical concern–it takes less of my dime to warehouse than it does to kill. I would prefer the monsters simply be locked away outside of society in a way that achieved “the silence” a previous poster mentioned (I expanded on that in the “Will this NEVER end?” thread awhile back). But killing him was far preferable to the neverending stream of interviews and such a life sentence of an infamous person entails in the real world, so I’m comfortable with my dime being thus used. I just really hope that the FBI disclosed all of its screw-ups large and small already. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/59 "2001-06-12T03:15:54Z")
Q - JFTR, my parents divorced, remarried, then divorced again. I just asked you not to assume that we have all had shit dealt to us. My life hasn’t been all roses. The thing that pisses me off is your mere mention of his troubled past. Intentional or not, you are somehow validating his actions by excusing them in part with a rough life. There are people in this world who have gone through a hell of a lot more than McVeigh and have never even once considered harming another human being. Regardless of his past, he made the decision to blow up innocent people. There are no excuses. You may resemble McVeigh in certain aspects, but the difference that makes him a despicible piece of shit is that he chose to act on his thoughts. That and that alone. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411/60 "2001-06-12T04:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diane \* > \*\*Q - JFTR, my parents divorced, remarried, then divorced again. > > I just asked you not to assume that we have all had shit dealt to us. My life hasn’t been all roses.\*\* I should apologize for being an ass. I did assume that everyone has had shit in their lives that isn’t exactly pleasant. If anyone would care to disprove this assertion, be my guest. \*\* > [@](#): > > The thing that pisses me off is your mere mention of his troubled past. Intentional or not, you are somehow validating his actions by excusing them in part with a rough life. There are people in this world who have gone through a hell of a lot more than McVeigh and have never even once considered harming another human being.\*\* My point in mentioning his past is not to excuse his actions. They’re simply inexcusable, facts being what they are. Let me put it this way… suppose that McVeigh had the worst childhood ever. All other sufferings in history pale in comparison to Hypothetical-McVeigh’s life. If this were the case, we could say, “Ok, he blew up the Murrah Building because he had the worst childhood in history.” But that’s not the case, and that’s exactly my point. He’s no different from the rest of us, with respect to his childhood. I’m not trying to excuse his actions. I am asking people, for the millionth time, to remember that he was a person. I’m not asking anyone to think of him fondly, but I am asking people not to pigeonhole him as a total fluke, as a non-human. \*\* > [@](#): > > Regardless of his past, he made the decision to blow up innocent people. There are no excuses.\*\* You’ll have no arguments from me. \*\* > [@](#): > > You may resemble McVeigh in certain aspects, but the difference that makes him a despicible piece of shit is that he chose to act on his thoughts. That and that alone.\*\* Yes, his actions and his actions alone differentiate him from the rest of us. Not his childhood, not his genes, not anything else. As comforting it may be to pinpoint something about him and say, “There, THAT’S why McVeigh is different from me,” that’s simply disingenuous. Quix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bang-bang-the-witch-is-dead/68411.md?page=4)