# Bank of America to Charge for Debit Cards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 29, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034 "2011-09-29T17:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/241 "2011-10-14T00:26:12Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > If I ignore it, or ridicule it the cactus buttfucking or fellating or other tasteful descriptions than I am accused of “failing to engage the substance of the argument.” > > However, if I respond, I am being “defensive.” > > You can’t have it both ways you cactus buttfucking financier fellating mook, you. You ramble on about my mother, and about me personally because you didn’t like my point that large banks did stupid things, blinded by greed, and caused a lot of innocent people tears, strife and destitution, and I haven’t said one unkind word to you. Which one of us is the 13 year old? Say what you want about my mother but she raised a damn sight better than yours apparently raised you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/242 "2011-10-14T00:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > There is caveat emptor in here somewhere. If you are going to buy a CDS or take an IOU, it is your responsiblity to evaluate the credit. > > A large part of what happened in 08 was because this wasn’t happening. Those that failed to do so share blame. Further, which group of banks where complete fail at evaluating credit and butt fucked the economy with a cactus? You say an IOU is more secure from Bill Gates, but even retard can see that’s not so if Bill Gates has more in IOUs out than money. Why were banking executives so fucking stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/243 "2011-10-14T00:38:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You ramble on about my mother, and about me personally because you didn’t like my point that large banks did stupid things, blinded by greed, and caused a lot of innocent people tears, strife and destitution, and I haven’t said one unkind word to you. Which one of us is the 13 year old? > > Say what you want about my mother but she raised a damn sight better than yours apparently raised you. I thought you called me a cactus buttfucker, or some such. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/244 "2011-10-14T00:42:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I thought you called me a cactus buttfucker, or some such. I called large banks cactus butt fuckers. Are you a large bank? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/245 "2011-10-14T00:53:02Z")
Unless I’m mistaken, he does work in the financial services sector. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/246 "2011-10-14T00:58:49Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Further, which group of banks where complete fail at evaluating credit and butt fucked the economy with a cactus? You say an IOU is more secure from Bill Gates, but even retard can see that’s not so if Bill Gates has more in IOUs out than money. > > Why were banking executives so fucking stupid? I’ll answer this one very nicely: If you **had** the money, you wouldn’t need to write an IOU. The only time you write an IOU is when you don’t have enough money. So, when you ask that question I can’t help but chuckle a little bit about who’s calling who “fucking stupid.” The value of an IOU from a credit standpoint is dependent less on the current assets of the lendee than I think you are aware of. A bank does not wish to own assets and take away collateral. They simply wish to get paid. Therefore, the most operative function in evaluating the merits of making a loan or not, is not assets, but cash flow. It is the future cash flow of the lendee that will best determine the ability of that entity to pay back the loan in a timely fashion. So, loaning somebody more money than they have is logical reasonable and common. ok? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/247 "2011-10-14T00:59:56Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I called large banks cactus butt fuckers. Are you a large bank? In the sense that a cog is a part of an engine… yes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/248 "2011-10-14T01:11:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Unless I’m mistaken, he does work in the financial services sector. At a large bank? If so, and if his actions were a part of the cause of this mess then I have said unkind words and he had them coming. If he’s the janitor at one, well you can’t hate the janitor. Word to the janitors at large banks: you’re okay people, unless you’re not for other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/249 "2011-10-14T01:23:11Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > At a large bank? Yes. > [@](#): > > If so, and if his actions were a part of the cause of this mess then I have said unkind words and he had them coming. So, you think. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/250 "2011-10-14T01:23:50Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’ll answer this one very nicely: > If you **had** the money, you wouldn’t need to write an IOU. The only time you write an IOU is when you don’t have enough money. > > So, when you ask that question I can’t help but chuckle a little bit about who’s calling who “fucking stupid.” > The value of an IOU from a credit standpoint is dependent less on the current assets of the lendee than I think you are aware of. A bank does not wish to own assets and take away collateral. They simply wish to get paid. Therefore, the most operative function in evaluating the merits of making a loan or not, is not assets, but cash flow. > > It is the future cash flow of the lendee that will best determine the ability of that entity to pay back the loan in a timely fashion. > > So, loaning somebody more money than they have is logical reasonable and common. > > ok? So how come economy was trashed? It looks to me like there was massive strings of default credit swaps. Are bankers too snooty to know how dominos work? Again that is preciously what happened. Your coworkers stacked up a bunch of CDS with no ability to pay them off. Just like the Bill Gates IOU hypothetical. Tell me they didn’t. You can’t because millions wouldn’t be out of work if they hadn’t. . ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/251 "2011-10-14T01:55:40Z")
Also the claim no one saw this coming is without merit. from: [Credit Crisis? Just Wait for a Replay](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/28/business/28norris.html) By FLOYD NORRIS Published: December 28, 2007 > [@](#): > > But if the credit insurers turn out to have had inadequate reserves, what are we to make of the credit default swap market? Mr. Seides calls it “an insurance market with no loss reserves,” and points out that $45 trillion in such swaps are now outstanding. That is, he notes, almost five times the United States national debt. > > Many of those swaps cancel each other out — or will if everyone meets their obligations. The big banks say they run balanced books, in which they sell insurance to one customer and buy insurance on the same borrower from another customer. But if some customers cannot pay what they owe, this could be another shock for bank investors. As it is, financial stocks have underperformed other stocks by record amounts this year. Again, dominoes. One tips over and tips over so many with it. More IOU type things than money. You’re saying a anyone who wasn’t a retard couldn’t see any potential huge economic risks with this? [http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1723152,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1723152,00.html) Monday, Mar. 17, 2008 Credit Default Swaps: The Next Crisis? > [@](#): > > The CDS market exploded over the past decade to more than $45 trillion in mid-2007, according to the International Swaps and Derivatives Association. This is roughly twice the size of the U.S. stock market (which is valued at about $22 trillion and falling) and far exceeds the $7.1 trillion mortgage market and $4.4 trillion U.S. treasuries market, notes Harvey Miller, senior partner at Weil, Gotshal & Manges. “It could be another — I hate to use the expression — nail in the coffin,” said Miller, when referring to how this troubled CDS market could impact the country’s credit crisis. > [@](#): > > Indeed, commercial banks are among the most active in this market, with the top 25 banks holding more than $13 trillion in credit default swaps — where they acted as either the insured or insurer — at the end of the third quarter of 2007, according to the Comptroller of the Currency, a federal banking regulator. JP Morgan Chase, Citibank, Bank of America and Wachovia were ranked among the top four most active, it said. Does that seem cover-able with future cash flows? Edit: here’s the thing. I don’t believe in judging a person by their associates, usually, so I’ll even say you might be a good person, but you’re hanging with a bad crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/252 "2011-10-14T02:48:30Z")
Tao: I’ve kind of summarized the credit crisis in some other posts, but really, from what you are posting, you don’t have enough of a grasp on it for me to help you understand it. If you google Kahn Academy, you will see that he has created a lot of short, easy to understand presentations that will take you through the basic concepts, so that you can have a good grasp on what happened. Than, I think you will have the ability to form an opinion with value. No insult intended. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/253 "2011-10-14T05:59:35Z")
It’s so adorable that you think you’re an authority on anything but funny blimp stories. I mean, of COURSE the correct answer just HAPPENS to be the one that makes you and your employers out to be the smartest guys on the planet who just got caught off guard by this. Oh, and responding to cites from respectable publications with “go visit Kahn Academy before I talk to you”? Fucking priceless. Comedy gold. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/254 "2011-10-14T13:22:59Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > It’s so adorable that you think you’re an authority on anything but funny blimp stories. Says the IT drone to the financier. Get a clue. > [@](#): > > I mean, of COURSE the correct answer just HAPPENS to be the one that makes you and your employers out to be the smartest guys on the planet who just got caught off guard by this. If I had said this perhaps you might have a point. > [@](#): > > Oh, and responding to cites from respectable publications with “go visit Kahn Academy before I talk to you”? Fucking priceless. Comedy gold. Yeah. The way he is using the pieces he quoted really doesn’t support the argument he is making. In all sincerity, there are concepts here that you just don’t understand. My point is not that the finance industry is innocent. It’s not. But there is a lot of guilt to go around, and most of us in this industry are hardworking caring people who give a shit and believe in what we are doing. Like most folks in most industries. There is frankly a very fucking stupid viewpoint being held by intelligent people that should no better that the banking industry is the cause of the current crisis. It’s dangerous simplistic and self indulgent. I’m surprised because I would think that people who work with technology like yourself or other professionals would have learned by now to be careful with their assumptions. Apparently you have not or are deliberately ignoring that lesson. That’s why I do Derbyshire if you are really a kid. You act like one. I’ll explain something about CDS’ that you probably didn’t know. Since they are a form of insurance let me use an analogy. Mbia and ambac basically insured everything that was insurable in the finical markets. So, if you buy a municipal bond that is ensured by Ambac what do you think that insurance is protecting you from? Ambac can’t pay for everything it covers if everything defaults, right? So, when you have an Ambac insured bond what you are really covering yourself against is “specific risk.”. Your bond defaults. You really aren’t covered against “market risk”. All bonds defaulting. Same thing with CDS’. They can cover you against specific risk. That’s why they are So cheap. So, this outrage that the issuers can’t cover everything is misplaced. Nobody who knew what they were doing seriously Expected them too. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/255 "2011-10-14T15:09:20Z")
In all sincerity, I’m not concerned about the worker bees. I’m sure you’re a fine, upstanding citizen who’d never make ridiculously dangerous new financial instrument types and the get a gigantic handout that comes straight from my pocket when they fuck up the entire economy. Look, man. Bank/finance sector profits are on the same level and trajectory as they were before the crash. Aside from 2008, you guys haven’t had a bad year while the rest of us are digging ourselves out of the hole YOU GUYS created with your worthless CDS instruments and deceptive, poorly rated CDO instruments. So yeah, fuck the entire industry you work for. The more I think about it, and the more you try to defend it, the more I just want to burn it all down and dance in the ashes, then make you pay me for my fire creation and choreography services because I’m too big to fail. Just like you fuckers did to the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Bri2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/48db29/32.png) [@Bri2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bri2k)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/256 "2011-10-14T19:05:53Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > In all sincerity, I’m not concerned about the worker bees. I’m sure you’re a fine, upstanding citizen who’d never make ridiculously dangerous new financial instrument types and the get a gigantic handout that comes straight from my pocket when they fuck up the entire economy. > > Look, man. Bank/finance sector profits are on the same level and trajectory as they were before the crash. Aside from 2008, you guys haven’t had a bad year while the rest of us are digging ourselves out of the hole YOU GUYS created with your worthless CDS instruments and deceptive, poorly rated CDO instruments. > > So yeah, fuck the entire industry you work for. The more I think about it, and the more you try to defend it, the more I just want to burn it all down and dance in the ashes, then make you pay me for my fire creation and choreography services because I’m too big to fail. Just like you fuckers did to the rest of us. Amen. Bri2k ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/257 "2011-10-14T19:32:55Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The more I think about it, and the more you try to defend it, the more I just want to burn it all down and dance in the ashes, then make you pay me for my fire creation and choreography services because I’m too big to fail. Just like you fuckers did to the rest of us. Yea, I don’t think that’s gonna work. Look, I get the anger. And I feel it too. But I think that what Scylla is trying to say is that the Banking Industry, while having their hands pretty dirty, is not soley responsible for the mess and that said is mess is much more complicated than most of us can fathom. Taking action against only the most visible part of the problem may have disastrous consequences. Simple and quick solutions to complex problems are very rare. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/258 "2011-10-14T19:57:05Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Yea, I don’t think that’s gonna work. Sure it’d work, it’d just also cause other problems. > [@](#): > > Look, I get the anger. And I feel it too. But I think that what Scylla is trying to say is that the Banking Industry, while having their hands pretty dirty, is not soley responsible for the mess and that said is mess is much more complicated than most of us can fathom. Taking action against only the most visible part of the problem may have disastrous consequences. I disagree wholeheartedly. The problem is not as complex as Scylla is trying to make it. It’s very simple–financial institutions should not be in the business of inventing new securities that are inadequately or not-at-all backed. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/259 "2011-10-14T20:02:46Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > In all sincerity, I’m not concerned about the worker bees. I’m sure you’re a fine, upstanding citizen who’d never make ridiculously dangerous new financial instrument types and the get a gigantic handout that comes straight from my pocket when they fuck up the entire economy. > > Look, man. Bank/finance sector profits are on the same level and trajectory as they were before the crash. Aside from 2008, you guys haven’t had a bad year while the rest of us are digging ourselves out of the hole YOU GUYS created with your worthless CDS instruments and deceptive, poorly rated CDO instruments. > > So yeah, fuck the entire industry you work for. The more I think about it, and the more you try to defend it, the more I just want to burn it all down and dance in the ashes, then make you pay me for my fire creation and choreography services because I’m too big to fail. Just like you fuckers did to the rest of us. God damn right. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bank-of-america-to-charge-for-debit-cards/598034/260 "2011-10-14T20:22:34Z")
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