I know both who I’d rather have a beer with AND trust with my money.
That latter bit will eventually be the one that bites your particular industry in the ass if it doesn’t start shaping up.
Stopping the fool notion of pretending that “no fiduciary duty” means “no moral/ethical duty” would be a nice start.
As far as I’m concerend, screw B of A, Goldman Sachs, and Loeb Rhoads, and all the rest of the Wall Streeters, bankers, forclosure robo-signers, and property speculators. Screw them and their 14 (or so) TRILLION dollar bailouts. Too big to fail? Let them fail and then lock them up.
They caused the current situation and then got obscene bailout money for it, courtesy of OUR taxes.
I didn’t really say that, did I?
You do a pretty good job at ignoring things that you don’t agree with. So, while I haven’t known you very long, you’ve done a superior job of showing that your integrity,your diligence, and your intellectual honesty are sub par.
I spent a great deal of effort to write a long post to answer specific questions. You’ve chosen to ignore it. So, we can talk about all this other shit and how much you despise other people and things you don’t know or understand. But, what I do know about you, is you how you debate,
You are not diligent. You are not honest, and you don’t display intellectual integrity.
That sets you far below most of those in the banking industry that I know.
Even for you his piece o innuendo is both idiotic, and low.
Because I understand the crisis I am responsible and caused it?
That’s what you just said.
Doctors must be responsible or illness, and mechanics are the reasons cars don’t work?
Brilliant. :rolleyes:
Scylla, granting you’re completely innocent in all this. Are you claiming Bank of America (whom I cited earlier as being heavily involved in CDS trading) had no knowledge it was running huge risks?
That bank professionals like yourself there had no idea what they were building was a fragile house of cards?
Given the obvoise commentary I pointed out earlier, if you say they had no idea, than you’re calling them mind numbingly, incompetently, stupid.
No. Clearly they did. There were supposed to be controls in place by risk management, limits on the the traders actions and the amount of capitol that could be put at risk. In hindsight, these were pretty reasonable and sober limits. The traders and the entire mortgage backed departments completely ignored these limits, for, I think, two years or more, IIRC, without any consequences, likely because they were making lots of money.
I wasn’t at BAC, but no, I didn’t. Again, we’re talking about companies that employ 50,000 people, or so. I don’t know what they all do. And, particularly in the investment business, there is a legal entity called a “chinese wall,” which exists between key departments, because for one department to know what another department is doing can be a conflict of interest. So, no, I did not know how much the CDO traders had on the books.
Interestingly, in the case of Merrill, apparently nobody knew how much they had at risk, so poor was the communication.
Well, considering what happened at Lehman, Merrill, Bear Stearns, BAC, and quite a few others… that’s probably giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Thank you. I think this is what makes everyone so mad. Wreck-less actions were pursued in the name of profits for some, but everyone felt the pain when it failed.
Again thank you. I agree most of those people were completely innocent. However I don’t think that applies to the management who should of kept track what the company was doing. Those companies did something that hurt a lot of people, I think punishment is in order for those companies. Corporations have the rights of person hood, well person hood includes personal responsibility.
Well apparently, as cited earlier, it wasn’t a complete surprise.
Further from the 2007 NY Times article:
For example while I might not know about how interconnected the dominos were, but for lack of a better phrase, that practice looks thermodynamical unsound to me, and of need of investigation. Like the financial equivalent of plugging a power strip into its self and expecting to get electricity.
They really aren’t people, you know? You can’t punish them any more than you can punish, say, a brick. Corporate personhood isn’t real.
If you punish the corporation, what you really punish are the employees and the shareholders. I think the actual people responsible should be held responsible.
And thanks for your appreciation. I’ve been trying to answer everything as honestly as I can.
You pointed it out as though it mattered. If you ask me, it does not.
Nice to see you admitting that the financiers were at fault, though.
If you smash a brick with a sledgehammer, it stops doing brick-like things. That’s good enough for me.
I do not care that it harms the employees and the shareholders. The former had a duty to stop it or get out, and the latter take their chances when they invest like anyone else.
If my company does something blindingly stupid, and I don’t stop it or get out, I EXPECT it to hurt me. I’ve skipped out of more than one job bare weeks ahead of layoffs.
The worst part is that from what you’re saying, the decision-makers probably weren’t actually doing anything illegal except breaking internal rules regarding risk assessment. How, then, ought we punish them, in your opinion?
If they didn’t follow the internal rules that they set up, they committed fraud against their shareholders, they should lose their assets and do jail time.
Stan O’neil should be in jail right now. No question.
Meh, open this in Great Debates if you want diligence or any kind of intellectual rigor.
I’m here to rant about idiocy. The Pit is for intemperance, anger, and malice.
Maybe. But that doesn’t explain or excuse your willful ignorance, and dishonesty.
So far as I can tell, “willful ignorance” in your world means “disagreeing with High Financier Scylla”.
Punishing the shareholders is intended. Don’t choose to invest in companies with jackasses running them. Punishing the employees isn’t good, but can’t be helped.
You can’t punish a parent without indirectly hurting a kid, but we do. Further a lot of people were punished by lose jobs, lose of healthcare, lose of stability who had nothing to do with these large banks.
Companies should operate under the knowledge hurting a lot of people is bad for the bottom line.
Nonsense. As you surely must know by now, your narrative of a big ol’ gosh darn Oopsy runs counter to the more common story, as outlined by such as Michael Lewis and Matt Tabibi. All well and good, assuming that you know more about it than they do, and many others. In support of this assertion, you offer your vast education and experience, as well as your insistence than anyone who does not see the clear clarity of your theme is an idiot.
But, you insist, almost in the same breath that you knew nothing about it, nor did anyone else you personally know. You are like a podiatrist opining on the efficacy of pre-frontal lobotomy. Yes, you are a doctor, but you never performed the operation, you don’t know anyone who does, and have no particular expertise in neurology. But on this basis you demand that we accept your analysis over others, as mentioned before.
This does not make you a thief, or a liar. It simply means that you are a very competitive person, with a ferocious desire to win. I daresay this will not come as a shock to anyone who has had the experience of arguing with you.
You can fairly claim insider knowledge, and deal with issues like personal culpability any way you choose. Or you can deny any responsibility and insist on your own personal innocence and, hence, ignorance. But you can hardly say “Well, I work in the industry, so my vast expertise should be held above the more common narrative. But I don’t actually know what happened, because I had no part in it. but I still win, because I’m much smarter than you!”
'Luce:
Stop making shit up and attributing it to me. If you have a problem with what I said, you should quote it.
The High Financier has spoken! sounds gong
But I know all about this stuff, Scylla! Ive held a wide variety of temp positions. One of them was for Wells Fargo, mortgage documents. A couple of us. Then the ARMs started to flow, then flood, then inundate. First there were a couple of us, then there were five, and then…
So I consulted the old man, who worked as a real estate assessor. A natural born iron-ass, just to the left of Calvin Coolidge. You’d like him, you have a similar level of tolerance for dissenting views, but he would likely find you a tad too liberal. Politicallly, a knuckle walking troglodyte, but he wouldn’t pick up a nickel off the sidewalk if it wasn’t his.
So, what is this ARM stuff, I asked. Total ballistic. Its bullshit, it stinketh unto the highest heaven, they have built too many houses for upper middle income people and they don’t have enough upper middle income people to sell them to. Nobody wants to build modest family homes, because that’s not where the big money is. Sometimes ARMS are ok, sometimes they work, if someone is making X money but is likely to make twice X in the very near future.
“How many are you seeing?”
“Tons, Dad, tons.”
“Oh, fuck! Well, they’re gonna have to find some way to move them off their books, but sooner or later, someone is going to take it right up the wazoo. Go home, son, I gotta make some calls, get my money out of anything to do with mortgages.”
“You’re welcome.”
“Shuttup, hippy…”
Maybe that’s why he voted for Kerry. Darned if I know.
Wow, that’s quite an anecdote. So what happened next? I mean here you are, in the perfect position to understand the great ARMS threat. It’s like a movie really, you and your grouchy cohort figured out the whole plot.
So, you sounded the alarm bells, right? You cried “Foul,” and raised up all your hippie draft dodging friends and staged in a walk-in or some such to rasie awareness about the danger, right?
Why not?
You worked in the mortgage department. You knew people were going to get fucked. Why did you let it happen? Why did you profit from it?
And, you have the audacity to blame somebody else when you both knew and profited from it?
That is some cold ass shit.
How do you sleep at night?
Well, as you’ve proven in this thread, High Financiers don’t listen to lowly temp workers in the mortgage department.
And why should they? To be a High Financier, one must know all, see all, and be responsible for not a single thing.