Hijack
So if the date is just for reference, why will banks sometimes refuse to honor a year old check that you got for your birthday last year and never deposited.
dauerbach:
Those banks are following a bank policy, not the law.
It’s legal for them to decline to cash those checks, but it’s also legal for them to cash them.
Someone did. Random posted:
As someone noted, laws will vary among different countries. In the U.S., though, most (if not all) states have adopted the revised (1990) Articles III and IV of the Uniform Commercial Code, which governs check tranactions. The 1990 revision made important changes relating to the dating of checks.
Relevant sections are:
Sec. 3‑113. Date of instrument.
(a) An instrument may be antedated or postdated. The date stated determines the time of payment if the instrument is payable at a fixed period after date. Except as provided in Section 4‑401©, an instrument payable on demand is not payable before the date of the instrument.
(b) If an instrument is undated, its date is the date of its issue or, in the case of an unissued instrument, the date it first comes into possession of a holder.
** Instrument is a term that includes checks. Note exception.**.
Sec. 4‑401. When bank may charge customer’s account.
(a) A bank may charge against the account of a customer an item that is properly payable from that account even though the charge creates an overdraft. An item is properly payable if it is authorized by the customer and is in accordance with any agreement between the customer and bank.
(b) A customer is not liable for the amount of an overdraft if the customer neither signed the item nor benefited from the proceeds of the item.
© A bank may charge against the account of a customer a check that is otherwise properly payable from the account, even though payment was made before the date of the check, unless the customer has given notice to the bank of the postdating describing the check with reasonable certainty. The notice is effective for the period stated in Section 4‑403(b) for stop‑payment orders, and must be received at such time and in such manner as to afford the bank a reasonable opportunity to act on it before any action by the bank with respect to the check described in Section 4‑303. If a bank charges against the account of a customer a check before the date stated in the notice of postdating, the bank is liable for damages for the loss resulting from its act. The loss may include damages for dishonor of subsequent items under Section 4‑402.
Note 4-401©.
Sec. 4‑404. Bank not obligated to pay check more than six months old.
A bank is under no obligation to a customer having a checking account to pay a check, other than a certified check, which is presented more than 6 months after its date, but it may charge its customer's account for a payment made thereafter in good faith.
The stale check provision.
From this, I think that your best recourse for recovering some money (not necessary the best way from a legal standpoint) is to talk to the daycare center about the first $33 that resulted from their depositing your check early. They were clearly at fault there. As to the other $66, you can speak to your bank about the fairness of the situation since they had a role in those transactions going through. I don’t think that you can convinince the daycare center to pay this last $66 even though they were the underlying cause for the penalty. Well, that’s what I would do. Good luck and let us know how things turn out.
Perhaps the lesson to all this is to not use post-dated checks, ever. Don’t write them; don’t accept them.
Later financial voodoo should not turn a good faith transaction into an overdraft, that’s all I’m sayin’. If the check was posted at 0000 on Monday, then the ATM should have had that information, known there was no money in the account, and denied the transaction. If the check was posted on 2400 Monday, then when the ATM made the transaction earlier in the day, there was sufficient money in the account, and it was not an overdraft.
The way it plays out shows me a bank ordering the way they process transaction to maximize the possible penalties on their customers… and/or not bothering to sync their systems to the same end result. Unless they’ve got excellent bend-over-backwards customer service to compensate for them trying to screw you with a faceless machine, I’d run away.
The point-of-sale debit transaction is a different beast, but it also took place the day after the account went negative.
I’m not convinced this is completely true anymore. Many ATM networks do have access to realtime information, usually switched through one of the major switching networks (e.g.: Pulse or Star) if the ATM does not belong to the account holder’s bank.
Stand-in based on velocities and not balance certainly happens when networks are down, but I don’t think this is the norm. I’d certainly be surprised if an ATM allowed me to withdraw money I didn’t have.
Ok. It appears to be a little different here, it is all instantaneous aside from credit transactions which may take a couple of days. Walk into a store with $10 in your account, make two transactions, one for $6 and one for $5, and the second will be declined.
Ultimately it IS your own responsibility to ensure that you have the funds to do what you are trying to do, however in my experience banks are often fairly forgiving when it comes to charges caused by a once off episode of poor financial awareness.
Typically you are expected to be responsible for your own financial recordkeeping. The banks will often overdraw your account if you write checks or make withdrawals that do so because banks like to keep a merchant’s transactions simple. As a caveat though some banks will require that a merchant validate an account balance before accepting the check (at many supermarkets your check must be ran through a validation machine, after that whatever happens with the account the bank gaurantees the merchant that money) and credit/debit validations are pretty much intrinsic to how the cards are used.
As far as the ATM letting you draw over your account, I’m not necessarily sure banks design their systems to “stop you” from overdrawing your account. In college I had a friend who messed up his checking account and overdrew it $5, and was then immediately charged a $25 NSF fee. So he was $30 in the red on that checking account. A full 7-9 days later we’re going out to the bar and he withdraws $20 from the ATM, I asked him if he had paid his fees up and he told me hadn’t, he was just going to overdraw it some more. This wasn’t smart on his behalf, but he was loose with money throughout college and he needed a good drink as it was finals week and he’d bombed a biology test. Anyways, the ATM and bank cleared the transaction and happily tacked on another $25 fee.
I’m not sure if it’s against the law or what but maybe banks intentionally allow customers to overdraw their accounts? Perhaps with the reasoning that some customers are willing to do so in an emergency situation and have already accepted the NSF charges de facto.
In my experience working at a bank, the situation trublmakr encountered was one of the most common customer complaints I received. Others have pointed out that post dating a check will not affect how a bank processes it. It shouldn’t be done. More generally, if you do not have the funds in your checking account right now to cover the check you are writing, do not write it. Do not depend on float periods, post dated checks, or bank procedures to protect you from overdrafts.
Banking networks try very hard to update transaction information as soon as possible. When I make an ATM withdrawal or debit card purchase, I find that these transactions are usually noted right away when I check my balance by telephone. But for any number of reasons, these networks may be down, or may contain outdated information. I am absolutely certain, though, that the account disclosure information received when one opens a checking account holds an individual responsible for ensuring adequate funds are available to cover transactions initiated with an ATM or debit card.
It is a very common and very innocent mistake that happened, trublmakr. I can say from personal experience that if you present your situation in a polite manner to a responsive bank employee, he will mentally grind his teeth, repeat to you essentially what I have just said…and then politely refund your money.
I have my checking account tied to my savings account, so that if I overdraw, the funds are transferred automatically, and I’m only charged $5 instead of 30. My bank told me about this arrangement after I'd accidentally overdrawn when a debit card purchase went through depsite there being insufficient funds to cover the amount by only about .60. They were kind enough to also refund the $30 overdraft fee when I asked if they would. I like my bank.
A related question:
I have in the past issued postdated checks where I filled in the date-to-honor along with the amount on the appropriate line, so that it read:
“Pay to the order of Liberty Bell Telephone Co.
One hundred and 00/100 dollars on or after January 1, 2001”
The idea being to mail it out prior to the date I would make a deposit, owing to mail delays between my home and the city the check was to be sent to, so that they would receive payment at the agreed time – and with a Post-it note stuck to the check indicating that I would be receiving an automatic deposit on 12/31/00 to cover the check.
As it turned out, this never caused a problem – the checks came through my bank after the deposit had been made.
Would that, as opposed to a post-dated date in the date space, be considered legally binding? Because I’m specifying in the “Pay to/amount” area the date on on or after which this is a negotiable instrument, not merely placing a date on it.
Based on what was posted in this thread I’d have to say no, it doesn’t matter and the banks would pay absolutely no attention to the date you wrote. Checks are payable when presented, there is no mechanism to “hold” checks. You cannot specify when this becomes a negotialbe instrument, by definition it is negotiable as soon as you sign it.
I finally had a chance to talk to the director today, and he offered to put the $99 towards my tuition for this week. I was very prepared to give my two-week notice and quit them if he’d been a jerk about it, and I’m very happy it didn’t come to that. He was very nice about it, and now we are both satisfied.
Never again, though, never again.
Random is correct. You have no claim against your Bank. You may have a claim against the Daycare. Generally, just handing them a check that’s postdated doesn’t protect you. BUT- if you both agree that the check won’t be deposited until the date- then things change. IANAL- and don’t rely on “oral contracts” but since it appears in this case the Daycare accepted your proviso, they are at fault- and their offer is reasonable under the circumstances.