# Banning Burkinis (or Veils/Headscarves) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085 "2016-08-17T15:43:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/1 "2016-08-17T15:43:26Z")
[French PM backs bans on burkinis as they are based on ‘enslavement of women’](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/17/french-pm-backs-bans-on-burkinis-as-they-are-based-on-enslavemen/) > [@](#): > > French Prime Minister Manuel Valls has said he backs bans on burkinis because the swimwear is based on the “enslavement of women.” > > His comments came after a few more beach towns followed the lead of the Riviera resort of Cannes and introduced their own local bans on the garment which some Muslim women wear to meet with Islamic requirements to dress modestly. > [@](#): > > France already has laws banning women and girls from wearing face-covering veils in public and headscarves in schools because they are religious symbols that are deemed to breach French secular principles. > > Islamic State (Isil) extremists have cited these bans as one of their justifications for targeting France, which has been hit by a string of jihadist attacks over the last 19 months that have left the country on edge and fretting over home-grown religious extremism. I don’t agree with this. If the government gets to decide what people get to wear based on the government’s interpretation of the true meaning and symbolism of that clothing, there’s no end to it. I can see banning veils where ID is an issue, but other than practical considerations of that sort, I don’t think it’s justifiable at all. Not to justify ISIS terrorism in response, obviously, but these guys have a point on this one - they _are_ being oppressed here. It’s nobody’s business whether some woman wants to wear a burkini or veil or whatever, or if she agrees that this constitutes “enslavement of women” or whether she’s possibly even in favor of “enslavement of women”. Basically, the government should just butt out. [On a side note, I’m thinking these bans would be unconstitutional in the US, both on free speech/expression and on freedom of religion grounds.] ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/2 "2016-08-17T15:54:31Z")
Yeah, it seems to me, legislating a woman out of a burqa/burqini is the EXACT same sin as legislating her into one. I’m not sure how anyone can see passed that detail, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/3 "2016-08-17T15:57:20Z")
Weird - it’s almost as if subjugating a minority population to oppressive laws that specifically target that population foments fear, distrust, and outright hatred of the government that does it. Good thing nobody wants to do that here in the US! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/4 "2016-08-17T15:59:03Z")
France is different from the US, with a different history of the Church/State issue. But yeah, I think it’s nuts to tell women they can’t wear too much clothing at the beach. Still, I like the word “burkini”. Genius! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/5 "2016-08-17T16:04:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Weird - it’s almost as if subjugating a minority population to oppressive laws that specifically target that population foments fear, distrust, and outright hatred of the government that does it. > > Good thing nobody wants to do that here in the US! Is there any place on earth where there are no people who want to do this sort of thing? Not sure what that has to do with the discussion about whether or to the government should do those sorts of things. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/6 "2016-08-17T16:05:05Z")
I think, despite government claims, this law is more anti-Muslim than pro-women. As far as I know, the French government has taken no action against other symbols of female oppression which are traditional in mainstream French culture. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/7 "2016-08-17T16:10:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there any place on earth where there are no people who want to do this sort of thing? Not sure what that has to do with the discussion about whether or to the government should do those sorts of things. Good thing nobody wants to do that here in the US! (sarcasm) Does that help? Of course the government should NOT do these sort of things (no sarcasm) This law is stupid. And the French government is stupid for passing it. Is there really a debate about it? Here in the US, laws banning “baggy pants” are likewise stupid. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/8 "2016-08-17T16:16:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Weird - it’s almost as if subjugating a minority population to oppressive laws that specifically target that population foments fear, distrust, and outright hatred of the government that does it. > > Good thing nobody wants to do that here in the US! Why is this about the US? Why does everything have to be ‘yeah, but the US does bad stuff too, so…’? Any thoughts on this that don’t have to do with how evil and bad the US is? As for the OP: > [@](#): > > I don’t agree with this. If the government gets to decide what people get to wear based on the government’s interpretation of the true meaning and symbolism of that clothing, there’s no end to it. I thought it was a bad move when they started doing this, and that they continue to make a big mistake on this. If you France really is concerned about womens rights then they should put out information on why they think that wearing this stuff is wrong or oppressive. Attempting to simply legislate it by fiat is likely to have the exact opposite effect. It’s likely to be MORE oppressive if muslim women who are already under seeming attack can’t even go to the beach or leave their houses because their clothing choices are banned. (BTW, I don’t think Islam, per se indicates that women have to or even should wear burkas or anything else, just that they should dress ‘modestly’. This is from memory, but I seem to recall that the whole veils and the head to toe body coverings are more Arabic cultural than strictly religious) > [@](#): > > Not to justify ISIS terrorism in response, obviously, but these guys have a point on this one - they are being oppressed here. It’s nobody’s business whether some woman wants to wear a burkini or veil or whatever, or if she agrees that this constitutes “enslavement of women” or whether she’s possibly even in favor of “enslavement of women”. Basically, the government should just butt out. There is no justification for what ISIS or any of the other terror groups do, but it does seem this is likely to oppress more Muslim women than it emancipates. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/9 "2016-08-17T16:19:41Z")
I think it’s wrong and counterproductive. If I were a mischievous sort, next time I go to a French beach, I’d wear a burkini. People should be able to wear whatever the hell they want in public places. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/10 "2016-08-17T16:21:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Good thing nobody wants to do that here in the US! (sarcasm) > > Does that help? Pffft. Your post was a gratuitous dig at the US and you got called on it. Has nothing to do with “sarcasm”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/11 "2016-08-17T16:25:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Pffft. Your post was a gratuitous dig at the US and you got called on it. Has nothing to do with “sarcasm”. Actually it WASN’T a dig at the US. I live in the US. It WAS, however, a dig at certain people who would like to impose oppressive measures against minority groups here. And, the law is stupid. And no, governments shouldn’t be in the business of regulating what clothing people can wear. The US isn’t stupid, the people who pass these stupid laws are stupid, even if they are here in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/12 "2016-08-17T16:29:31Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Why is this about the US? Why does everything have to be ‘yeah, but the US does bad stuff too, so…’? Any thoughts on this that don’t have to do with how evil and bad the US is? I fail to see how my post showed “how evil and bad the US is” but whatever. Must just be me. In case it’s not clear, this law is stupid. It’s oppressive toward a specific population group. This oppression can only cause further fear, distrust, and sometimes hatred against governments who pass laws such as this. This fear, distrust, and hatred may culminate into riots and, sometimes, terrorist attacks. People in other countries (such as the US) should take note of the results of passing such inane, pointless laws. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/13 "2016-08-17T16:33:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I fail to see how my post showed “how evil and bad the US is” but whatever. Must just be me. > > In case it’s not clear, this law is stupid. It’s oppressive toward a specific population group. This oppression can only cause further fear, distrust, and sometimes hatred against governments who pass laws such as this. This fear, distrust, and hatred may culminate into riots and, sometimes, terrorist attacks. People in other countries (such as the US) should take note of the results of passing such inane, pointless laws. It’s tiring that questions that have zero to do with the US get responses like yours. I realize the OP actually mentioned the US at the end of his post, but the thread is about freaking France. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/14 "2016-08-17T16:41:23Z")
Tiring? Like, you have to take a nap after reading it? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/15 "2016-08-17T16:46:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think, despite government claims, this law is more anti-Muslim than pro-women. It’s neither. It’s pro-frightened and upset crowd that doesn’t to see things that remind them of islamism integrism (there’s an activist feminist/leftist fringe that actually wants to see veil and such dissapear as a symbol of women oppression, but politicians backing this don’t do it for this reason). It’s also pro-presidential elections next year, and it’s easier to ban burkinis than bombs. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/16 "2016-08-17T16:48:40Z")
The US has been telling religion to fuck off since its beginning, and the moment we stop telling religion to fuck off we become a totalitarian religious state. Fuck off religion. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/17 "2016-08-17T16:53:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Tiring? Like, you have to take a nap after reading it? What part of my very short reply to are you having trouble grasping? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/18 "2016-08-17T17:16:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What part of my very short reply to are you having trouble grasping? I’m having trouble grasping how your reply adds anything to the discussion, and seems to be just a snarky posting against other posters having the gall to mention the US. Perhaps you are just tired from being forced to read topics that mention the US. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/19 "2016-08-17T17:20:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think, despite government claims, this law is more anti-Muslim than pro-women. As far as I know, the French government has taken no action against other symbols of female oppression which are traditional in mainstream French culture. It’s definitely anti-Muslim. If they really want to pass some pro-women legislation they need to go after the fashion industry. How about a ban on heels over 3 inches? ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/20 "2016-08-17T17:22:47Z")
I don’t have a problem in principle with the idea of dictating what your society will and will not accept as a social norm… But having said that, at a certain point it just seems like pointless antagonism. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085.md?page=2)