# Banning Burkinis (or Veils/Headscarves) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085 "2016-08-17T15:43:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/81 "2016-08-17T23:19:30Z")
**clairobscur** , who is closer to the action, has indicated that this may in fact be an act of pandering to those who’d rather not have visible presence of Muslims (immigrant or native) than deal with root causes. Tied in with a rather “fundamentalist” conception of _laicisme_ as a cover excuse, ISTM. I find that credible. It is a conundrum, isn’t it, if the conclusion is that the only way of making sure no one is being _forced_ to wear/say/do something, is to _forbid everyone_ from doing so\* even if they wanted\* to… ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/82 "2016-08-17T23:32:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is also this ‘law of unintended consequences’ problem: that the state, by passing laws specific to one religion or cultural identity, sets itself up as oppressive to members of that religion or identity, such that breaking or challenging the law - for example, by wearing the outlawed garb in question - becomes a point of personal pride, regardless of religious feelings. > > Instead of the clothing symbolizing ‘oppression of women’ (the ostensible reason for the ban), the clothing may, in such a scenario, come to symbolize ‘resistance against the state’ or ‘religious/ethnic pride’. This is a good point. Historically, state actors haven’t been particularly successful at changing people’s behavior by making it illegal. They’ve done much better with nudges and incentives. Maybe France should sponsor some free sunscreen giveaways to women wearing scant clothing, or tax beachwear by weight. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/83 "2016-08-18T00:03:10Z")
It’s not even _desirable_ to suppress the burqini or the hijab, in my view. The burqa, sure, but if someone wants to wear something like a wetsuit or a headscarf, that’s not evidence that they’re being dehumanised and oppressed - maybe they just don’t want to get sunburned. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/84 "2016-08-18T02:01:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I mean force through threat of violence, which I think does probably occur in some circumstances. I don’t believe there should be laws against social consequences and cultural influence. Emphasis added. That is not already against the law? ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/85 "2016-08-18T02:43:42Z")
Thanks to **iamthewalrus(:3=** for injecting a note of sanity and thoughtfulness into this thread! ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/86 "2016-08-18T02:48:56Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Thanks to **iamthewalrus(:3=** for injecting a note of sanity and thoughtfulness into this thread! Really? Can you give examples? I can’t think of anything that was successful with nudges and incentives vs. being illegal and/or being fined. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/87 "2016-08-18T03:03:34Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Yeah, it seems to me, legislating a woman out of a burqa/burqini is the EXACT same sin as legislating her into one. > > I’m not sure how anyone can see passed that detail, to be honest. No, I’m with Ataturk on this one. For example requiring soldiers to not be uniform ally attired is NOT the same as requiring soldiers to be in uniform. And the burqa/burqini has specific significance as a uniform, which the French are, for historical reasons, more in tune with than are Americans. France, like Turkey, went through a secularization process demanding that people be treated equally regardless of religion, and demanding that people not wear religious uniforms when interacting with the state, I have read a very clear and attractive exposition of the right of women to wear whatever clothing they want, and to do so without any implied meaning. But the argument falls down when confronted with the fact that some people _do_ wear clothes with implied meaning, and that the implied meaning is sometimes destructive of civil society. I’m thinking specifically of two cases: the wearing of gang colors in school, and the wearing of the Burqa/Burkini/Hajib. Since I have listened to a statement of meaning about the Hajib, from an uneducated working class muslim woman, and since she agreed with Ataturk, I’m going to go with that meaning: the veil is a specific threat to civil society, and shoold be banned. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/88 "2016-08-18T03:25:28Z")
I think burquinis are absurd. But what’s more absurd is a prohibition against too much coverup on a beach or anywhere else. But that’s just my opinion, Man, and I think you should wear what you want. When I first heard about the French beach burquini ban, I thought it was because a weapon could be so easily concealed under copious clothing, so…security. Makes sense, doesn’t it? But nowhere do I hear that now, so it’s merely some asshole wanting to impose his religious idea of costume on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/89 "2016-08-18T03:38:47Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > No, I’m with Ataturk on this one. For example requiring soldiers to not be uniform ally attired is NOT the same as requiring soldiers to be in uniform. And the burqa/burqini has specific significance as a uniform, which the French are, for historical reasons, more in tune with than are Americans. > > France, like Turkey, went through a secularization process demanding that people be treated equally regardless of religion, and demanding that people not wear religious uniforms when interacting with the state, > > I have read a very clear and attractive exposition of the right of women to wear whatever clothing they want, and to do so without any implied meaning. But the argument falls down when confronted with the fact that some people _do_ wear clothes with implied meaning, and that the implied meaning is sometimes destructive of civil society. > > I’m thinking specifically of two cases: the wearing of gang colors in school, and the wearing of the Burqa/Burkini/Hajib. Since I have listened to a statement of meaning about the Hajib, from an uneducated working class muslim woman, and since she agreed with Ataturk, I’m going to go with that meaning: the veil is a specific threat to civil society, and shoold be banned. A burkini is a religious uniform? What organization do you feel women who wear a burkini belong to? Does this apply to other swimsuits? Can a woman find she has enlisted in some organization by wearing a bikini? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/90 "2016-08-18T03:48:27Z")
How do you feel about female circumcision? Freedom of religion and all that. Where do you draw the line? Why draw a line at all? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/91 "2016-08-18T04:44:08Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Islam is the most violently homophobic religion on the planet. Ask a gay Muslim. Do you not consider gay Muslims to be Muslim? Not sure why you’d bend over backwards trying to defend it. Is there something about gays that makes you think wishing them death is somehow appropriate? religious freedom and all that. Except that, you know, some of them are gay. > > Going to a beach and seeing a woman in a burka means she want’s me dead. That’s a trigger. I’m assuming you defend triggers, and yet you value Islam more than you value gay triggers. Interesting. Islam wants to kill gays? Not a trigger. Gays feeling Islam wants to kill them? Not a trigger. > > Yes, interesting. Did you have a stroke? :(😕 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/92 "2016-08-18T08:52:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You know, I am wondering how they are able to determine the difference between a “burkini” and a creative (like maybe a superheroine theme) bodysuit that a surfer or diver might be wearing? Are they going to require fashion police at the beach? Or someone dressed in turn-of-the-(previous)-century beachwear. Full-body covering, no lycra as it hasn’t been invented yet, and frills at every edge… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/93 "2016-08-18T08:56:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If I put on a burqa, does that mean that I want to kill gays? If I wear a swastika, does that mean I want to kill Jews? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/94 "2016-08-18T09:17:39Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > If I wear a swastika, does that mean I want to kill Jews? Do you believe that they are comparable? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/95 "2016-08-18T09:32:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe that they are comparable? I just compared them, didn’t I? Do you think the comparison is not warranted? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/96 "2016-08-18T09:59:50Z")
I just think once the state crosses the line into telling people what they can’t wear things get weird very quickly. I recall a while ago it was suggested people shouldn’t wear motorcycle crash helmets when not on a motorcycle (aimed at couriers making deliveries) - the state just shouldn’t go there. Fwiw, the French also have a law which requires men to wear speedo’s and not swimming trucks/shorts, but that’s a health issue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/97 "2016-08-18T10:29:50Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I just compared them, didn’t I? > Do you think the comparison is not warranted? No, I don’t. Maybe there’s a comparison between the burqa and a yellow Star of David, since some may be forced to wear it against their will. But I’m pretty sure that people in burqas don’t commit hate crimes very often. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/98 "2016-08-18T10:43:58Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > If I wear a swastika, does that mean I want to kill Jews? You could be Indian. Moreover, we’ve already been through this in this thread with Klan robes. Despite German swastikas and Klan robes being a much clearer intention of ones thoughts (to understate the matter), people here have already said that a law banning Klan robes would be equally stupid. I’d assume they’d feel the same about a law banning swastikas, while reserving the right to call the swastika bearer a literal Nazi. And yes, I know there are places where the Swastika is banned, but I don’t think American Dopers unreservedly back those laws, either. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/99 "2016-08-18T10:53:36Z")
Just to put this into context, it should be added that tensions are running high at the moment in Europe, and particularly in France. This is only tangentially linked to the issue discussed here but it’s part of of the general atmosphere: [A village mayor in Corsica has banned full-body swimsuits known as “burkinis” after a beach brawl between families of North African descent and local youths.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37082637) I’ve been following this and for the moment, depending on what sources you check, the versions of how the brawl started are _very_ different. The Muslim families said the local youths were taking pictures of them without their authorization and insulting them while the latter claim that they were pelted with stones because the families considered their outfits too revealing and offensive. Personally, I’m against the ban as it’s idiotic and discriminatory but I’m also concerned with prospect of having various communities trying to chase others out of their territory, which is happening on both sides, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/100 "2016-08-18T10:59:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Melbourne View Post: For example requiring soldiers to not be uniform ally attired is NOT the same as requiring soldiers to be in uniform I’m still trying to understand what the heck this is supposed to mean? Who’s talking about soldiers? Not being ‘uniformaly attired’ is NOT the same as requiring them to be in uniform. Um, okay, I guess. What? Nothing you said changes that coercing someone out of their clothes IS **EXACTLY** as evil as coercing them into specific attire. Dance around it all you like, it’s the same damn sin. And everyone can clearly see as much. If it’s really about the place of religious attire in society, then ALL religious attire (nuns habits, priest’s collars, etc) should be banned. But that’s not what’s happening, now is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085.md?page=6)