# Banning Burkinis (or Veils/Headscarves) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085 "2016-08-17T15:43:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/121 "2016-08-18T13:52:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think if those things are kept constant and the only change is that American Muslims become more secure as to their place in American society, then they will become less tolerant. > > If they become more secure etc. but also become more assimilated culturally and religiously, then that would not hold. But if present trends continue as to the latter, then the former will result in them becoming less tolerant in the future. > > JMHO. We’re none of us prophets, but that’s how I see it. When last I looked at the relevant polls, they purported to demonstrate increasing tolerance over time among American Muslims, as the polls were taken twice with an interval of some years between them. This seems to support either the theory that they are becoming more integrated, or the theory that they, along with the rest of US society, were evolving to become more tolerant (as increasing tolerance, particularly in respect of homosexuality, was noted among several other religious groups as well). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/122 "2016-08-18T13:53:48Z")
Except for the hood part (I wear a hat), I pretty much wear a burkini at the beach. Although I call it a rashguard, and wear it to protect my skin from the sun. Do the French enjoy sunburn and skin cancer? I can see a rational basis for requiring people to cover up at the beach, but requiring people to expose themselves to radiation hazard if they want to enjoy the sea is bizarre. Next, maybe they’ll require all beach-goers to drink vodka and smoke cigarettes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/123 "2016-08-18T13:55:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay – I’m just wondering why you believe that they would become less tolerant in these circumstances. Because it seems obvious to me that the fact that a community is itself of fairly recent origin for the most part in a country, and is insecure and worried about the societal antipathy and intolerance towards them, would have a dampening impact on their own intolerance of others. So it would follow that if you remove that aspect, then - all else being equal - it would tend to increase their intolerance of others. > [@Malthus](#): > > When last I looked at the relevant polls, they purported to demonstrate increasing tolerance over time among American Muslims, as the polls were taken twice with an interval of some years between them. > > This seems to support either the theory that they are becoming more integrated, or the theory that they, along with the rest of US society, were evolving to become more tolerant (as increasing tolerance, particularly in respect of homosexuality, was noted among several other religious groups as well). Well that’s good news if true. Do you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/124 "2016-08-18T13:57:10Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Do they have to drink wine and eat cheese too? How far does this go exactly? Good question. Who cares if you wore a small pendant, like so many christians, jews and turks wear? Not offensive. Also a statement, to be sure, but modest. Who cares if you suck sheep eyes, in the privacy of your own home? Not drinking wine with us? Then you’re not one of us, but okay, your choice. There’s more people that don’t drink. Not that big. I guess that the real objection is to the in your face statement of a burqa or the beard and robes. It makes it clear that you will never be one of us, until you have made us one of you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/125 "2016-08-18T13:59:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Because it seems obvious to me that the fact that a community is itself of fairly recent origin for the most part in a country, and is insecure and worried about the societal antipathy and intolerance towards them, would have a dampening impact on their own intolerance of others. So it would follow that if you remove that aspect, then - all else being equal - it would tend to increase their intolerance of others. Okay. I believe that there’s a general, long-term trend throughout the world (and especially the West) of increasing tolerance and acceptance for things like homosexuality and other personal lifestyles. Further, I believe that the more a community feels integrated into the broader society in which they live, the more they will come to share values with that broader society. I think those two factors are likely to be much stronger than the possibility you mention, in general. Do you disagree that these two factors exist, or do you believe that they may exist but the factor you mention is likely to overpower them? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/126 "2016-08-18T14:01:19Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I guess that the real objection is to the in your face statement of a burqa or the beard and robes. It makes it clear that you will never be one of us, until you have made us one of you. Why does that “make it clear”? It’s not clear to me. I don’t see why a person who wears a beard and robe and has an entirely peaceful and tolerant lifestyle can’t be “one of us”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/127 "2016-08-18T14:08:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > .Well that’s good news if true. Do you have a cite for this? Here you go: > **[Chapter 4: Social and Political Attitudes](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/)** > > Overall, more Americans now identify as politically liberal than did so when the Religious Landscape Study was first conducted, while fewer U.S. adults My previous post on the poll: > [@](#): > > This poll may be useful to this discussion. Don’t know if it has been posted here yet. > > It examines attitudes towards issues - including acceptance of homosexuality - by religion, for Americans. > > [http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/c...cal-attitudes/](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/c...cal-attitudes/) > > The important findings for our purposes: Muslims in America are not notably different in attitudes towards homosexuality from other mainstream religious groups. > > One of the questions was whether homosexuality should be accepted by society. The answer for Muslims was: 38% said “yes” in 2007; while 45% said “yes” in 2012. The answer for Protestants as a whole: 38% said “yes” in 2007; 48% said “yes” in 2012. > > [The groups that polled the worst were Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Evangelical Christians. Witnesses polled only 12% “yes” in 2007, and 16% “yes” in 2012]. > > This poll demonstrates some valuable points, based on some facts rather than rhetoric: > > (1) In America itself, Muslim attitudes towards homosexuality are reasonably mainstream, on average. They are no worse than American Protestants (again, on average). > > (2) Muslim attitudes, like that of anyone else, can change: they have, fairly significantly, in the short time between 2007 and 2014. > > (3) These attitudes are found in a population that is itself majority immigrant. It is interesting to note that the majority (61%) of American Muslims are themselves immigrants. > > (4) Therefore, there is nothing essential in being Muslim, or being a Muslim immigrant, that requires or imposes homophobic attitudes. It is perfectly possible to be both Muslim, an immigrant, and not homophobic - at least, the American polling data appears to demonstrate that Muslims in America, including Muslim immigrants, tend to either already have, or to assimilate, much the same attitudes as their fellow-countrypersons. > > [As an aside, the most liberal attitudes are on average displayed by Jews, Atheists/Agnostics, and Buddhists, in order of increasing liberalism; the group with the greatest level of increased liberalism is Hindus]. From: [http://www.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=795583&highlight=muslim+religion&page=5](http://www.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=795583&highlight=muslim+religion&page=5) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/128 "2016-08-18T14:24:09Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I guess that the real objection is to the in your face statement of a burqa or the beard and robes. It makes it clear that you will never be one of us, until you have made us one of you. Here in Canada, there was a fellow who made an “in your face” statement of his commitment to his faith and his determination never to be “one of us” with his big beard and turban, which he insisted on wearing all the time. He was so much a security risk, we made him Defence Minister! 😃 > **[Harjit Sajjan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harjit_Sajjan)** > > Harjit Singh Sajjan PC OMM MSM CD MP (/ˈhɑːrdʒiːt ˈsɪŋ ˈsædʒən/, HAR-jeet SING SAJ-ən; born September 6, 1970) is a Canadian politician who has served as the minister of emergency preparedness and the president of the Privy Council since July 26, 2023. A member of the Liberal Party, Sajjan represents the British Columbia (BC) riding of Vancouver South in the House of Commons, taking office as member of Parliament (MP) following the 2015 election. > Sajjan served as the minister of national defe... [Yes, Sikh and not Muslim … but the same idea applies] I like this detail: > [@](#): > > His Sikh beliefs requires him to keep his facial hair which prevents the use of regular military gas masks, so Sajjan invented his own gas mask that worked with his beard, and patented it in 1996. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/129 "2016-08-18T14:31:10Z")
So, the rationale for banning the burkini is that it represents the enslavement of women. If that’s the case, I guess I’m having trouble getting over the sheer Pythonesque-ness of the punishing of the victim here. “My dear lady, I can see by your attire that you are enslaved. There’s a law against being enslaved at this beach. Please stop being enslaved, or we will ask you to leave. Thank you.” “Well, officer, I think the term ‘enslaved’ implies that I’m not exactly doing it voluntarily…” “In France, we now believe that being enslaved is a person’s own choice. Therefore, we will fine you a large amount of Euros for being enslaved. Have a nice day.” Also, there’s the frivolousness about the front line of a cultural clash being beach attire. I mean, if you’re opposed to violent extremism, that’s one thing. If this is a conflict with two sides, there’s still kind of room to meet in the middle. You can tell the other side to knock off the extreme stuff, and then you can haggle your way further in the direction of the more mundane. But when you go directly for the swimwear, you’re already starting at the mundane end. There’s not much more room for the two sides two approach each other. It kind of says something about what you really feel about the entirety of the culture and religion of the other side. The message seems to be: “Fuck \*all \*y’all, and your bathing suits.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/130 "2016-08-18T14:34:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. I believe that there’s a general, long-term trend throughout the world (and especially the West) of increasing tolerance and acceptance for things like homosexuality and other personal lifestyles. Further, I believe that the more a community feels integrated into the broader society in which they live, the more they will come to share values with that broader society. I think those two factors are likely to be much stronger than the possibility you mention, in general. Do you disagree that these two factors exist, or do you believe that they may exist but the factor you mention is likely to overpower them? I don’t disagree that the two factors exist. I’m not sure whether the factor I mention will overpower them. That’s why I keep qualifying my prediction by saying things like “if those things are kept constant” - I don’t know if those things will be kept constant. I wouldn’t be completely sanguine about the prospect, though. > [@Malthus](#): > > Here you go: > > [http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/) > > My previous post on the poll: > > From: [http://www.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=795583&highlight=muslim+religion&page=5](http://www.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=795583&highlight=muslim+religion&page=5) That’s a very good cite. Thank you. That said, I would quibble a bit. There has been a pretty rapid change to societal attitudes towards homosexuality in the time-span of these polls, while the factor I’ve been discussing is a longer term process. So the fact that Muslim attitudes moved with the general population during that brief period is not necessarily a strong indicator that this will continue to be the case over the long term, when the community will feel more secure here. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/131 "2016-08-18T14:40:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > [Yes, Sikh and not Muslim … but the same idea applies] Does it, though? I don’t see much fear of Sikhs. Actually, I don’t recall seeing \*any \*fear of Sikhs. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/132 "2016-08-18T14:42:31Z")
Sikhs sometimes get attacked by people who think they’re Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/133 "2016-08-18T14:49:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s a very good cite. Thank you. > > That said, I would quibble a bit. There has been a pretty rapid change to societal attitudes towards homosexuality in the time-span of these polls, while the factor I’ve been discussing is a longer term process. So the fact that Muslim attitudes moved with the general population during that brief period is not necessarily a strong indicator that this will continue to be the case over the long term, when the community will feel more secure here. Certainly. What you’d need to nail this issue down, is regular polling over decades. As far as I know, that doesn’t exist yet. All that can be said is that, contrary to much publicly expressed concern (not least expressed by the current Republican candidate for POTUS), Muslims in America as a group are not notably different from other Americans on this particular issue - according to the available information. Thus, expressions of concern that Muslims as a group represent some sort of threat to the wellbeing of homosexual citizens cannot be sustained; it follows that measures taken to repress Muslim symbolism is dress and facial hairstyles, or to prohibit Muslim immigration, cannot be rationally justified on the grounds that Muslims as a group represent some sort of threat (even assuming that such measures were constitutionally valid). That isn’t to say that individual Muslims in America may not be a threat, only that measures aimed at Muslims _en mass_ are misplaced (again, ignoring for this analysis whether such measures are offensive or unconstitutional). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/134 "2016-08-18T14:54:25Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Does it, though? I don’t see much fear of Sikhs. Actually, I don’t recall seeing \*any \*fear of Sikhs. Sikh support for terrorism in Canada was a “thing”. In one incident, hundreds of Canadians were killed in the bombing of an airplane originating in Canada. > **[Air India Flight 182](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182)** > > Air India Flight 182 was a passenger flight operating on the Montreal–London–Delhi–Mumbai route, that on 23 June 1985, disintegrated over the Atlantic Ocean as a result of an explosion from a bomb planted by Canadian Sikh terrorists. It was operated using a Boeing 747-237B registered VT-EFO. The incident happened en route from Montreal to London at an altitude of 31,000 feet (9,400 m). The remnants of the aircraft fell into the sea approximately 190 kilometres (120 miles) off the coast The p... As a consequence, more Canadian civilians have been killed, to date, by Sikhs than by Muslims. This was the _largest mass murder in Canadian history_. So for Canadians, appointing a Sikh as Minister of Defence is the equivalent of the Americans appointing a Muslim to a similar position, post 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/135 "2016-08-18T16:28:15Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I’d love to hear the reasoning of anyone who is in favor of this law. I can’t understand the logic. I’ll be upfront and admit that I’m not really in favor of this law, because at its heart it runs contrary to “free expression”. But I have strong enough mixed feelings to give them voice here. For liberals like myself, censorship has always been a dirty word. Democracy must value the free flow of ideas and the opportunity to freely discuss the pros and cons of them. However, what about systems of thought that are in direct contradiction of free expression? Saudi Arabia won’t allow the women there to run around wearing bikinis, is France in the wrong to prevent women from visiting its beaches in burkinis for similar cultural reasons? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/136 "2016-08-18T16:51:03Z")
It just makes France no better than the Saudis they condemn, that’s all! They shouldn’t do that ! Let’s do it too ! ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/137 "2016-08-18T16:54:21Z")
What the fuck does the _ **Saudi arabia** _ have to do with the _ **French muslims** _? What the fuck does the **Australian** invented ‘burkini’ which [is just a full covering like a surfer wea](https://www.google.com/search?q=burkini&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=785&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi09MzwtcvOAhXLVRoKHWAxCAoQ_AUIBygC#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=burkini+surf)r have to do with the Saudis? What the fuck does the ‘system of free expression’ have to do with the beach wear (see the photos) that is just a surfer type wear with a hood? What are “French” cultural reasons can you tell me requires the woman to wear the “bikini” invented in the 1940s? Or perhaps it was the contra-party for the French giving the women the right to vote in that same decade? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/138 "2016-08-18T16:56:30Z")
[QUOTE=Doubticus] However, what about systems of thought that are in direct contradiction of free expression? Saudi Arabia won’t allow the women there to run around wearing bikinis, is France in the wrong to prevent women from visiting its beaches in burkinis for similar cultural reasons? [/QUOTE] Yes, exactly. Again, it comes down to choice. In Saudi they are wrong to not allow women to make the choice to wear a bikinis (or drive or myriad other things) and in France they are wrong to ban women who CHOOSE to wear burkinis, if that’s what they want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/139 "2016-08-18T17:08:03Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Except for the hood part (I wear a hat), I pretty much wear a burkini at the beach. Of course … and it will be fine until the moment someone thinks you are being Muslim and then it is Not Fine but if you are Catholic and have a catholiuc reason, ah then it is Tradition. And no one says anything… It is pure religious bigotry. > [@jsc1953](#): > > The French concept of “freedom of religion” is quite different from the US’s. It’s bound up in the law of “laicite”, which mandates secularism, to the extent that public displays of religiosity are forbidden. > > [French Law 'Laicite' Restricts Muslim Religious Expression : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2015/03/04/390757722/french-law-laicite-restricts-muslim-religious-expression) > > So this has nothing to do with being pro-women or anti-women or specifically anti-muslim. It’s how the French do things (which sounds strange to Americans accustomed to our interpretation of the First Amendment) That is complete bullshits. It is completely of course anti muslim, as of course there is no actoin taken against catholic sisters wearing their garmets, nor the catholic priests Nor in fact in real practice any catholic associated symbols in the private sphere. No, it is only the religious minority that gets this kinds of attack, it is purely majoritarian bigotry grasping at pseudo justifications to try to put a burqa on the prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085/140 "2016-08-18T17:21:08Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It just makes France no better than the Saudis they condemn, that’s all! > > They shouldn’t do that ! Let’s do it too ! Yes, having a dress code at the beach is _just like_ being stoned, caned, having your arms or legs chopped off, having your eyes gouged out and being beheaded. France is JUST LIKE Saudi Arabia! :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-burkinis-or-veils-headscarves/763085.md?page=8)