# Banning fireworks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100 "2003-01-01T22:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/21 "2003-01-02T10:45:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\* > The US limit of 50mg powder per firecracker is ridiculously low. The damned things can barely burst their container anymore, much less make a loud sound. You’d think the feds were _trying_ to coerce people into taking them apart and building larger devices from the contents. \*\* One of my students lost a couple of fingers using a firecracker. This happened about four years ago. There is enough powder in there to cause some damage. I never understood the desire for the loud pop. I do enjoy the pretty stuff. Firecrackers and the other noise makers… I could live without. I think fireworks should only be allowed outside of the city limits. There are just too many things that could go wrong in populated areas. Roof tops, passing cars, disturbing the peace, etc. I live right on the city limit line. After the 4th and after New Year’s I am always in my yard and in the street picking up all of the trash left from all of these responsible people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/22 "2003-01-02T11:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*I am forced against my will to concede this argument might have some merit. As a society we may very well be a bunch of idiots that nobody in their right mind would let have fireworks. And, until we reach the level of competence and responsibility of citizens of the Dominican Republic perhaps it’s for the best. > > As a famous patriot once said: “Absence of fireworks is the constant price of freedom from responsibility.” \*\* I must admit that while most of the time I’ve spent here has given me a sense of pride about the US – unrepaired streets, haphazard garbage collection, and frequent unexplained electric power losses here are all quite normal – it does pain me to read Scylla’s words and confront the idea that, in the matter of forcing the individual to be responsible for his own actions, the Dominicans are light-years ahead of us. Propoerty owners protect their property from wandering thieves with pointy fences and barbed wire, mere feet from public sidewalks. I commented that if that were done in the US, lawsuits would quickly follow… and I got amazed looks in response. I agree that fireworks laws have probably reduced injuries. But requiring each person to wear a helmet and kneepads when outside his home would also probably reduce injuries. The question is not whether injuries are reduced, but whether the cost in personal freedom is worth the reduction of injuries. Obviously, in this case, I’m not convinced it is. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/23 "2003-01-02T11:26:30Z")
The individual’s right to do foolhardy things ends where the public pocketbook begins. Easing restrictions on fireworks would presumably result in more use of them. Statistically, this would mean that more injuries would result. Treatment of these injuries would tax the public resources (the education of doctors and nurses is subsidized by the public) and result in higher health insurance rates for us all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/24 "2003-01-02T11:44:10Z")
Excuse me, **MSU 1978** , but it seems to me that your same argument could be applied to my tongue-in-cheek legislation regarding the requirement for all pedestrians to wear helmets and kneepads. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/25 "2003-01-02T13:33:21Z")
Celebrate the independence of your country by blowing up a small part of it. I think fireworks displays should be left to professionals, and controlled when and where they can occur. Every holloween in Ireland elderly people and pets are terrorised by youths with illegal fireworks and blackcats. They are nothing but an annoyance and need strict regulation. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/26 "2003-01-02T13:42:47Z")
I used to deliver newspapers. One year I was out at 4 am with a car full of highly flammable paper when some idiot fired a bottlerocket at my car. Fortunately, it missed my open window (sailed over the roof), but not by much. A little different luck and I’d have had a huge fire – and you can be sure that the idiot college student who did that probably didn’t have insurance and would have been judgment proof. I’m all for banning fireworks. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/27 "2003-01-02T13:54:16Z")
Why not ban - or, more accurately, punish - idiot college students, rather than fireworks? Isn’t that a more direct expression of solving the problem? After all, even without fireworks, such an idiot can cause harm in many ways; with the idiots censured appropriately, responsible people may continue to enjoy their freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/28 "2003-01-02T13:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Back in the day there was this thing called “personal responsibility.” I’m not sure what it means but I think it had something to do with the idea that if you decided to purchase fireworks you were supposed to know not to blow yourself up, and you were supposed to know what things you weren’t supposed to blow up. If you didn’t know, and you blew yourself up, nobody felt sorry for you and you had nobody to blame. If you blew somebody else’s stuff you had to fix it or go to jail, and if you hurt or killed somebody else you were dealt with harshly. > \*\* I agree that a ban would be unjustifiable in the face of only injuries to the person using the fireworks: that is a personal responsibility issue, and it shouldn’t be up to the state to protect idiots from themselves. The problem is, bottle rockets and the like _do_ set houses on fire, start grass fires, etc. Given the option of (1) living with a fireworks ban, or (2) waiting until some jackass burns my house down and then having to pursue a judgment against said jackass (who may well be judgment-proof), I’ll take option #1, thankyouverymuch. (And casting said jackass into jail doesn’t help me rebuild my house, BTW.) Personal fireworks use is OK in unincorporated rural areas assuming conditions aren’t too dry – my wife’s family congregates at the family farm every July 4 for just such a purpose – but a ban is entirely justifiable for densely populated areas. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/29 "2003-01-02T14:13:02Z")
**Bricker** , what sort of punishment of the idiot college student would have righted the wrong done to me? Idiot college student doing time in prison isn’t going to buy me a replacement car or restore my livelihood to me. In order to make this one fair, you have to seriously alter our entire private liability landscape in manners that are not likely to find much support. Should government pay tort claims when the tortfeasor is judgment proof? (Please note that I **could not** obtain comprehensive insurance on my car back in those days at a reasonable price.) Also, it can be very difficult to prove which idiot college student fired the bottlerocket. Student apartment complexes have a high density of idiot college students, and we can’t just arrest all of them for the crimes of one, now, can we? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/30 "2003-01-02T14:31:24Z")
**KellyM** , the idiot college student would have gotten fireworks to terrorize you with even if they were illegal. Just like with guns and drugs, making something illegal doesn’t make it vanish from society. The situation you described is the fault of the idiot colledge student, not fireworks. Even if he didn’t have the fireworks, he could have just thrown a rock at your windshield or an egg at your head. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/31 "2003-01-02T14:33:12Z")
Yeah. So let’s make fireworks illegal. Better yet, let’s make newspapers illegal, you wouldn’t have had a problem then, would you, Kelly? Newspapers are often far more inflammatory than a single bottle rocket, and you had a whole carload!! Did you call a cop- so they stopped the “idiot college student” from doing this again? No? Let’s see, as to your question > [@](#): > > "what sort of punishment of the idiot college student would have righted the wrong done to me? " it’s called reparation. when I was a kid, if I broke a window playing ball, I paid for the window out of my allowance. Or if you set your neighbors car on fire, you fixed/paid for/ replaced the car. It’s a little thing called “accountability”. When that “idiot college student” crossed the state line and bought fireworks anyway, or bought them over the net, or made them himself, an easy enough thing to do, who is then accountable? Making fireworks illegal in absolutely no way stops this activity. Not now, not ever. Sure, it’s hard to determine “which” student did this. When I was in school, you locked down the entire dorm until one person confessed, or the dorm stayed locked down. Fair? no. Were there any further problems? no. A good cop goes into the apartment building, knocks on doors, figures it out. Yeah. It’s much better to just ban everything. It fixes everything so well. b. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/32 "2003-01-02T14:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Excuse me, **MSU 1978** , but it seems to me that your same argument could be applied to my tongue-in-cheek legislation regarding the requirement for all pedestrians to wear helmets and kneepads. \*\* Not really. It’s all a matter of benefit/cost ratios. Society should do things with B/C \> 1. In the case of firework banning, the benefits are large (less drain on public resources and lower insurance rates) while the cost is quite low. To require helmets and kneepads for pedestrians, the cost would be high while the benefits would be marginal at best. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/33 "2003-01-02T15:11:45Z")
Cost to the state of banning fireworks: Nothing. Return on banning fireworks? Negative. no sales tax, same injury/property damage results because the people likely to injure themselves or cause property damage are exactly the folks who will cross state lines or drive cross country to obtain fireworks. Total effect? net loss. Cost to state of requiring kneepads and helmets for pedestrians? Nothing. Return on this requirement? decreased risk, decreased number of accidents, fewer injuries. Retail stores experience increased sales. tax revenue goes up. Kneepads and helmets become fashion items and an entire industry grows up around making newer prettier ones. Total effect? net gain. Any other good theories you’d like to espouse, MSU? b. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/34 "2003-01-02T15:19:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Billy Rubin \* > \*\*Cost to the state of banning fireworks: Nothing. Return on banning fireworks? Negative. no sales tax, same injury/property damage results because the people likely to injure themselves or cause property damage are exactly the folks who will cross state lines or drive cross country to obtain fireworks. > Total effect? net loss. > > Cost to state of requiring kneepads and helmets for pedestrians? Nothing. Return on this requirement? decreased risk, decreased number of accidents, fewer injuries. Retail stores experience increased sales. tax revenue goes up. Kneepads and helmets become fashion items and an entire industry grows up around making newer prettier ones. > Total effect? net gain. > > Any other good theories you’d like to espouse, MSU? > > b. \*\* Are you saying that personal injuries would not increase as a result of relaxing restrictions on fireworks? I dispute that. Make fireworks legal, idiot blows off hand, public resources are spent in repairing his body. One good personal injury would make up for the gain in sales tax revenue. High gain, low cost, good law. As for kneepads for peds, you have to consider agency costs and user costs. Agency costs are borne by enforcing the law, user costs are high in that everybody has to buy the equipment. High cost, small gain, bad law. I don’t need any more theories, my present one is correct as stated. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/35 "2003-01-02T15:31:20Z")
Cite to me any state where banning fireworks has stopped a single person from getting them and doing exactly as they please. Oh, that’s right, you can’t. Maye we should ban them all across the states, that’ll fix it, sure, Just like it’s worked for making drugs illegal. Thanks for enlightening me. As for this: > [@](#): > > Agency costs are borne by enforcing the law, user costs are high in that everybody has to buy the equipment. High cost, small gain, bad law. Not. The scenario I describe has already taken place with regard to child safety seats, I did not make this comparison out of whole cloth as you might incorrectly have assumed. Making seats mandatory has increased tax revenue, income for manufacturers who make the seats, hell an entire industry has grown around making child safety seat covers, for crying out loud. Oh, and while compliance isn’t 100%, it has saved lives, lots of them. > [@](#): > > I don’t need any more theories, my present one is correct as stated. Of course! You made it up, and you know all, so it must be right. This what they’re teaching in college these days? Next. b. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/36 "2003-01-02T15:34:14Z")
BTW, MSU, don’t take this personally or as an attack. My sarcasm is well known among my friends- and I’d always rather make a new friend than an enemy. So grin when you type, ok? I am. B. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/37 "2003-01-02T15:40:48Z")
From the [CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/fworks.htm): > [@](#): > > **What effect do laws have on fireworks injuries?** > > Studies suggest that state laws regulating the sale and use of fireworks affect the number of injuries incurred. For example, in one state, the number of injuries seen in emergency departments more than doubled following the legalization of fireworks (McFarland 1984). > > Under the Federal Hazardous Substances Act, the federal government prohibits the sale of the most dangerous types of fireworks to consumers. These banned fireworks include large reloadable shells, cherry bombs, aerial bombs, M-80 salutes, and larger firecrackers that contain more than two grains of powder. Under this same Act, mail-order kits to build these fireworks are also prohibited (Banned Hazardous Substances 2001). ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/38 "2003-01-02T15:53:56Z")
Also: In Illinois, where fireworks have been illegal for many years, there are always fireworks injuries. [here](http://www.luhs.org/depts/injprev/FireBurn/firework.htm#Summary) is a link to a Loyola site which gives a listing of fireworks injuries by type, severity, etc. I find it amusing that the fifth highest injury by percentage comes from Sparklers, which are legal. No, making fireworks legal will not result in zero increase in injury. But making them illegal doesn’t eliminate injury either. I live not a mile from a major fireworks center in Indiana. Those people in the parking lot, buying huge carloads of fireworks? Illinois and Michigan plates. Nice cite, Attrayant. Thanks. Of course, as I’ve stated, the legalization might indeed make injuries more common, but illegalization will not stop them. And as I state some many posts above, illegality is an assurance of a cottage black market industry, always has been, always will be. I like the language of the cite, that’s amusing. “Studies suggest”. hehe! b. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/39 "2003-01-02T16:16:00Z")
[Here,](http://www.pyrouniverse.com/stats.htm) by the way, is an interesting (and _mostly_ common sense based) dissenting opinion. Nice links to info from the Consumer Products Safety Commission. For the record, I never touch fireworks. I enjoy them, but hell, I’d rather see the next-door neighbors spend all the cash and blow it up, I’m no fool.I’m surrounded by people who spend thousands of dollars, and I get to enjoy it all for free. The excitement doesn’t go away for me because I’m not lighting the fuse. b. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100/40 "2003-01-02T16:16:41Z")
> [@](#): > > same injury/property damage results because the people likely to injure themselves or cause property damage are exactly the folks who will cross state lines or drive cross country to obtain fireworks. This is a ridiculous argument and you have no evidence for it. A reduction in the quantitiy of fireworks set off in a given area will almost certainly reduce the rate of injuries and damage caused by fireworks, even if it’s absolutely proportional. Perhaps there are some studies comparing the casualty rate in states where they are legal vs illegal. And what if all states banned fireworks or there was a federal ban? The rate would drop almost to zero since few are going to smuggle them in from outside the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-fireworks/146100.md?page=3)