# Banning menthol cigarettes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973 "2021-04-28T19:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/81 "2021-04-30T14:12:09Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Don’t tell me it’s the size of the plant; cannabis grows 6’ or taller, and every college kid has that shit growing in their closet. As a former college kid, I never saw anyone with a plant more than a few inches high. Most every one of them gave up and tossed it long before it produced anywhere near enough to even roll a joint. The people growing 6 foot plants are running operations large enough that helicopters with FLIR cameras can spot the heat coming out of the house from the grow lights or the electric company noticing that their bill is 10x higher than it should be. > [@Smapti](#): > > If Big Tobacco is no longer making menthol, where’s the black market going to come from? You can’t exactly grow tobacco in your basement You wouldn’t need to grow your own anyway. Menthol cigarettes are flavored at the factory, it’s not that it’s a different variety of tobacco that has a minty taste. If someone wanted to create a black market for menthol cigarettes, they would likely just buy regular cigarettes and find a way to flavor them. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > And to repeat, again… people have suggested in this thread that the ban is targeted for the benefit (or detriment of) black people. But I don’t think anyone supporting the policy has actually suggested that this is the case. Even if a policy isn’t specifically meant to target a group, it doesn’t mean it won’t do so inadvertently. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/82 "2021-04-30T14:23:30Z")
Note that high taxes are only one component leading to cigarette smuggling (which occurs in low-tax areas as well), and that tobacco companies themselves facilitate smuggling. > **[ILL\_facts\_en-REMOVE.pdf](https://www.tobaccofreekids.org/assets/global/pdfs/en/ILL_facts_en-REMOVE.pdf)** ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/83 "2021-04-30T14:32:09Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > In all seriousness … why not? > > Don’t tell me it’s the size of the plant; cannabis grows 6’ or taller, and every college kid has that shit growing in their closet. Tobacco needs more land, more sun, more skill to make a product that is as (relatively) easy to consume as what Altria sells in gas stations. That’s even before we get to cutting, fermenting, drying, and flavoring. The “bang for the buck” is said to be terrible, and out of reach for folks who don’t live on a half acre or more. To make an analogy to meat, Marlboros are a tender, thick-cut steak, and home-grown tobacco is gnawing venison right off a live deer (which I feel confident saying is unpleasant). Contrast with growing marijuana, which can be done with a compact setup in a basement with pretty good quality. And even bad-quality weed doesn’t taste disgusting like bad-quality tobacco does. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/84 "2021-04-30T14:41:41Z")
I"m not sure anyone is saying they’re the only ones, but among African-American smokers, I believe one of the studies upthread (or perhaps it was one I looked up independently) said something like 70-90% are menthol smokers compared with about 25-35% for whites, depending on the study. That said, I also read (but cannot find the cite) that by numbers, only something like 30% of all menthol sales go to African-American smokers, and, by sales units, whites actually buy more menthols. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/85 "2021-04-30T15:03:48Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > "m not sure anyone is saying they’re the only ones, but among African-American smokers, I believe one of the studies upthread (or perhaps it was one I looked up independently) said something like 70-90% are menthol smokers compared with about 25-35% for whites, depending on the study. That said, I also read (but cannot find the cite) that by numbers, only something like 30% of all menthol sales go to African-American smokers, and, by sales units, whites actually buy more menthols. You may be right. My take on the demographics of menthol smoking is based purely on personal experience, and is therefore limited and local. I grew up and started smoking in the days when everyone smoked. When I was in high school, senior were allowed to smoke in school. When I was in college, smoking was allowed in dorms and common areas. When I graduated, smoking was permitted at work, and just about everywhere. So I knew lots of smokers, of my own age and older. Looking back, I knew exactly _one_ white smoker of menthols. And _every_ Black smoker I knew smoked menthols. But, as I said, that’s personal and local experience. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > tobacco companies themselves facilitate smuggling. Yes indeed. [https://apnews.com/article/daace9f3147ac546135d8f2af44c56d6](https://apnews.com/article/daace9f3147ac546135d8f2af44c56d6) > **[RJR NABISCO UNIT ADMITS SMUGGLING (Published 1998)](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/23/nyregion/rjr-nabisco-unit-admits-smuggling.html)** > > Northern Brands International, RJR Nabisco Holdings Corp unit, pleads guilty to helping distributors evade $2.5 million in United States excise taxes on cigarette shipments authorities say were ultimately smuggled into Canada to avoid high taxes on... Sorry, the Times article may be paywalled. Anyway, all that just reinforces my belief that a menthol ban will just create a massive bootleg market for menthol cigarettes. Also, will a ban on menthol sales and/or production apply to the several brands of smokes made on Indian reservations? If not, more opportunity for bootlegging. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/86 "2021-04-30T15:11:57Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > My take on the demographics of menthol smoking is based purely on personal experience, and is therefore limited and local. I don’t think your demographics are wrong. Blacks smokers as a whole overwhelmingly prefer menthol; whites not as overwhelmingly prefer regular. I’m surprised, though, that you only knew one white menthol smoker. When I smoked, about a quarter to a third of the white kids I knew smoked menthols, but I also grew up in the city, so there may be a larger influence of menthol cigarettes here – I’m not sure. That said, I’ve met white country kids who were menthol smokers, too, so that may be a spurious connection. Personally, I could never stand the damned things. Back when cigarettes were cheap and bumming them was expected when you ran out, I would never bum a menthol, no matter how hard I was jonesing. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/87 "2021-04-30T15:17:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I also grew up in the city, so there may be a larger influence of menthol cigarettes here I grew up in New York City. So who knows. As I said, my sample is not exactly random. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Personally, I could never stand the damned things. I could never stand them either. Funny – I was once saved (after having quit for years) from relapsing by a menthol cigarette. I was walking around with a friend in her almost exclusively Black neighborhood in Brooklyn (Brownsville, if you’re familiar with NYC and Brooklyn in particular). She wasn’t really a smoker, she was one of those once-in-a-while, take-it-or-leave-it smokers who us hopeless addicts hate, and she decided she wanted a smoke. We stepped into a bodega to buy a loosie. The only loosies they had were Newports, which was fine with her, that’s what she wanted. So she lights up, we’re walking down the street, and I decide I want just one drag. So I ask her for it, she gives it to me, I take a drag, and it’s so gross (to me) that I’m never tempted again. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/88 "2021-04-30T15:36:07Z")
It the ban on menthol cigarettes is the beginning of a total ban of all tobacco products, that is okay in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/89 "2021-04-30T16:29:02Z")
I’m not against banning tobacco but I do find it odd that we’re banning more smokes while simultaneously opening up MJ. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/90 "2021-04-30T16:32:25Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > It the ban on menthol cigarettes is the beginning of a total ban of all tobacco products, that is okay in my book. As I said above, I think it’s easier to make the case for a total ban on tobacco products than for this partial ban, which will (with some justification) be perceived as targeting Black smokers. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/91 "2021-04-30T16:38:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > To reiterate a point that was made upthread; you can’t bootleg a product that doesn’t exist. If Big Tobacco is no longer making menthol, where’s the black market going to come from? I wouldn’t be surprised if some Chinese entrepreneurs started making menthol cigarettes for the American market to be smuggled in. They’ve already manufacture their own cigarettes and I can’t imagine it’d be difficult for them to start sending them to the United States. I won’t guess how serious of a problem it might be though. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/92 "2021-04-30T16:59:15Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Just like NYC’s law prohiting smoking (all smoking) in public housing. > But I still think that the menthol ban would be in the same category as the ban on smoking in New York City public housing – a prohibition on something that Black people (and, in the case of public housing, poor(er) people do, but there’s a lot of overlap there) do that middle-class white people are permitted to do without question. As an FYI - NYCHA put that ban into place because HUD required all public housing authorities to have a smoke- free policy a few years ago. It’s not a law - it’s a lease provision, just like the one that appears in many leases for non-NYCHA apartments inhabited by middle-class white people. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/93 "2021-04-30T17:01:44Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’m not against banning tobacco but I do find it odd that we’re banning more smokes while simultaneously opening up MJ. The only thing those two share is that marijuana is often smoked. You might have a point if marijuana has been shown to cause smoking related illnesses (lung cancer, emphysema, COPD etc), but I don’t know that it has. Plus, there’s plenty of other ways to get THC/CBD into your body that don’t involve smoking. That would be like if there was a ban on alcoholic beverages, but saying it doesn’t make sense since there’s still alcohol in your lotion or shampoo (while ignoring the fact that there’s nowhere near as much nor is it going to cause you to drive your car into a bus stop or wreck your liver). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/94 "2021-04-30T17:03:58Z")
_The product is more addictive than cigarettes without menthol,_ Simple. It is NOT just flavor. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/95 "2021-04-30T17:04:00Z")
If it is really the case that mentholated cigs are more addictive, I would reject this proposal. But that puts a different slant on things. I think the other flavored cigs were banned because they are more attractive to minors and makes them likelier to start. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/96 "2021-04-30T17:06:18Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Cigarette smoking isn’t a smart habit to acquire, but I believe people deserve agency to do harmful drugs as long as they aren’t hurting other people in the process. The 50000 non smokers who die each year due to second hand smoke would disagree- but they can’t _as they are dead._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/97 "2021-04-30T17:09:47Z")
You are correct on the second part, that is why other favors were banned. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/98 "2021-04-30T17:14:12Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > As an FYI - NYCHA put that ban into place because HUD required all public housing authorities to have a smoke- free policy a few years ago. It’s not a law - it’s a lease provision, just like the one that appears in many leases for non-NYCHA apartments inhabited by middle-class white people. Fair enough, and thanks for the correction. That said, it still seems that New Yorkers (and people outside NYC, since it’s a HUD requirement) who qualify for public housing (i.e., lower-income New Yorkers) are subject to a restriction that more affluent New Yorkers aren’t. My own fairly expensive condo building in Brooklyn Heights, for example, does not ban smoking. And many buildings don’t. Some do, but if one can afford free-market rents, one has a choice. That bugs me. Seems unfair. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/99 "2021-05-01T16:10:46Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > In fact, wasn’t it you yourself who mentioned that other flavors were banned in 2009, and menthol is merely the last flavor to get the ax? That suggests the opposite of it being about racial paternalism. Menthol is also, by far, the first flavor to be on the market. The other flavors are much more recent, and it can be argued that they tend to market to kids. The argument for banning flavored cigs was that it would reduce the temptation for kids to smoke them. It was about teen smoking, not about adult smoking. Menthol isn’t enticing kids to smoke cigarettes, not like strawberry or banana flavors could be argued to. Most people who smoke non-menthol can’t stand menthol. When I smoked cigarettes, I actually switched to menthol specifically to stop people from bumming off me. “Can I get a smoke off you?” “Sure, but it’s menthol” _look of disgust_ “Oh, nevermind.” At first I didn’t like it, but after a while, it grew on me, and I no longer much liked regular cigarettes. If they wanted to decrease smoking altogether, banning _non_-menthol would probably be more effective. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973/100 "2021-05-01T16:17:56Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > people pick up the habit because they think it looks cool, and they stay on it because of the drug that’s in it. The drug is all they need. As a former smoker and current vaper, I picked up the habit because my parents chain smoking around me my whole life addicted me to nicotine before I ever lit one myself. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If you take the menthols away, smokers will absolutely switch to an unflavored brand. They’ll bitch about it for a few days, or the rest of their life, but their drug cravings will be satisfied. Or, they’ll quit over it (but probably not). Okay, so what good is being done by taking menthols away, if it won’t cause anyone to quit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-menthol-cigarettes/940973.md?page=6)