# Banning sniper rifles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918 "2002-10-12T03:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/61 "2002-10-13T20:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > \*\*Actually, **Chris** , the US Military doesn’t say their .50s are “antipersonnel” weapons- rather, they’re used against light armor and vehicles. That’s not to say they _haven’t_ been used otherwise, it’s just not an official designation. \*\* Don’t forget missile systems and other materiel, the idea being that a $2 bullet neutralizing a $400,000 missile is a pretty effective bit of sniping. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Also, the Dragunov fires a 7.62 x 54mm rimmed round, basically a somewhat larger-cased version of the 7.62 x 39mm round the AK variants use. \*\* It’s not a different “version”, it’s an entirely different round/case. It just happens to share the same diameter, but .30 caliber is an extremely common diameter. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The Soviets did have a 12.5mm heavy machine gun, though I kind of doubt you had the opprotunity to fire it. \*\* You’re probably thinking of the DShK machine gun, which is 12.7mm - same as a .50, I believe. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > The precursor to the Barrett “Light .50” was of course the Browning M2 heavy machine gun. The Ma-Deuce can indeed reach out to 2K meters and greater, but at those ranges, it’s an “area suppresion” weapon, not a precision piece. \*\* It’s not accurate to call it a ‘precursor’, because it doesn’t have the same role, nor is it replacing the weapon in question. They just happen to use the same round. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/62 "2002-10-13T20:48:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\* > It’s my understanding that a round fired into a crowd would keep on penetrating people until it ran out of people to penetrate. I know that in WW! & WW2 a single .50 cal MG round would often take out several soldiers. This happened on D-day as the guys were coming off the landing craft. > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* Most full power rifle rounds have the power to penetrate several people - it’s just a fluke if it actually happens that way. And the germans didn’t use .50 cal MGs, only .30 cal, so it’s unlikely US GIs were getting raked by them unless someone had some _really_ bad aim on our side. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/63 "2002-10-13T20:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\* > Well yeah, **poink**. The moment a lawful gun owner commit’s a crime, he/she become’s a criminal. Pretty nifty way to keep the ranks of lawful gun owners squeaky clean, I’d say. 😉 > Anyway, just how dangerous is the .50? In the hands of a criminal, of course. > It’s my understanding that a round fired into a crowd would keep on penetrating people until it ran out of people to penetrate. I know that in WW! & WW2 a single .50 cal MG round would often take out several soldiers. This happened on D-day as the guys were coming off the landing craft. > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* Uh, rethink what you know. The germans didn’t use .50 MG’s in their MG nests at Normandy. The bulk of them were Mg-34’s and -42’s, with a few captured french water-cooled jobs thrown in, all in the 7.92mm range (7.7 or 7.5 for the french, I guess). And a light .50 cal is in the 30-40 pound range. My buddies AR-50 is about 40lbs. Some get up to 50-60lbs or more. Like hell anyone is going to be lugging one of these into the mall for a little macabre shopping. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/64 "2002-10-13T20:50:25Z")
Oh, and the “20,000 federal gun laws” bit is true as far as I know. It’s not exaggeration - but I can’t remember where I read about them. It’s perfectly believable, because a ridiculous degree of minutia is involved in these sorts of things. If you still believe it’s pro-gun propoganda, I can try to find a source for you. And no, not every law would apply to you if you were going to buy a gun. If you were going to buy a handgun, then the shotgun specific laws obviously wouldn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/65 "2002-10-13T21:43:36Z")
Well, that’s what I get for watching History Channel while half asleep. I don’t think they mentioned caliber, just that some rounds took out more that one guy because of how closely packed they were. Bad assumption. I’m not believing _anybody’s_ propoganda. 20,000 gun laws, esp. just federal, still sound’s like a lot to me. Somebody’s doing some compounding somewhere. For example, if an assault weapon law (hypothetical) mention’s 10 criteria, it wouldn’t be 10 laws, would it? Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/66 "2002-10-13T22:20:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\*Well, that’s what I get for watching History Channel while half asleep. I don’t think they mentioned caliber, just that some rounds took out more that one guy because of how closely packed they were. Bad assumption. > I’m not believing _anybody’s_ propoganda. 20,000 gun laws, esp. just federal, still sound’s like a lot to me. Somebody’s doing some compounding somewhere. For example, if an assault weapon law (hypothetical) mention’s 10 criteria, it wouldn’t be 10 laws, would it? > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* I don’t find it hard to believe, but there are a ridiculous number of laws for lots of stuff. I once read that we had more laws regulating cabbage than some countries had laws, or something similar. A casual search only gives me references to the number, not a source - but I’ll give it a more thorough search later tonight. ---
**Author:** ![TBone2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@TBone2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBone2)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/67 "2002-10-13T22:31:27Z")
No, they’re not all federal. And the number is more like 22,000, last I heard, mostly due to the anti-assault-weapon crusade. The laws range from the federal statutes regarding classification of weapons to the village level, again regarding classification of weapons. All are prohibitory. IMHO, all are unconstitutional, but that’s a matter for debate. It is fact that a normal, law-abiding U.S. citizen can place a legally owned firearm in a motor vehicle, leave home, and become a criminal instantly by crossing a state, county, or municipal boundary. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/68 "2002-10-13T22:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > and was effectively used to destroy Iraqi armored personnel carriers during the Persian Gulf war," Ridley-Thomas sa Re: 50 cal just want to add it seems like a useful thing to have around. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/69 "2002-10-13T23:39:58Z")
I also did a search, and most sites do claim “20,000 gun laws on the books in the US”. Well, I don’t find _that_ so hard to believe if you do indeed count every law in every municipality in the US and add them all together. I didn’t find out how many cities, towns, hamlets etc there are but there have to be at least a few thousand. If you take all the laws in your city and your state, and add them to federal laws you get a meaningful number. But not, I believe 20,000. And that make’s the statement, as used here and on other sites, a myth. I poked around the NRA site (which I respect) a little and didn’t find any official mention of this number. Could have missed it though, cause I’m getting hungry. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/70 "2002-10-14T00:35:13Z")
**SenorBeef** - Agreed on all points. Call it a lack of explanation, not lack of knowledge. 😃 By “precursor” I meant in terms of a weapon in the caliber, adopted and issued prior to the Barrett, not that the Barrett was developed from the M2 or designed to replace it. As for the Russian heavy, I knew they had _something_ in that ballpark, but I don’t know any specifics. **Mangeorge** - Again, why is that number so hard to believe? If we printed out the United States Tax Code, it would result in pallets of paperwork weighing literally several metric tons. When I looked up my local vehicle ordinances, the Library had about twelve feet of books concerning just civilian non-commercial vehicle regulations. All those regs I mentioned before were just off the top of my head. I have no idea how many I’m not even aware of- The crossing state lines bit above, is a good example… In some places you can’t bring a firearm within a thousand feet of certain buildings, like schools. So driving by with it locked in the trunk and unloaded, is a crime- and another law. To be perfectly honest, I’m surprised it’s “only” 20K, a number I’ve heard bandied about for a decade or more. Admittedly, making it somewhat more likely it’s an urban legend. The point, I suppose, is that we have thousands of laws already on the books. The DC shooter is, for example, already breaking innumerable laws, not the least of which is murder and attempted murder. And yet, if or when he’s caught and his weapon identified, the hue and cry will arise to ban whatever class of weapon it is/was. Murder is already illegal, regardless of means. Current laws and the threat of prison and possible execution don’t seem to be deterring the DC loon, so why does anyoone think yet another law will be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/71 "2002-10-14T01:40:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\* > > I said nothing about banning ammo (or firearms, or privately-owned nukes). > > \*\* OK, then how do you plan to persuade the South African, Russsian, and Israeli militaries (to give some common and inexpensive sources of imported ammo) to add and keep track of taggants in their military surplus ammo for the benefit of US police departments? If you are only going to add taggants to brands manufactured in the US and allow free importation of untagged ammo, doesn’t that kind of defeat your purpose? ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/72 "2002-10-14T02:27:22Z")
Simple: “No ammunition or powder shall be sold or otherwise transferred within the United States or to any person or entity resident in the United States unless said ammunition and/or powder have taggerts known to the (full name of ATF)”. Then it becomes a Customs issue. And, maybe it’s just me, but: If the original owner doesn’t want it, I’m not certain I do either. How does ammo become ‘surplus’? For instance: If the SA military thinks its too old, I would tend to agree. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/73 "2002-10-14T02:33:17Z")
and no, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for those who want military weapons of their very own. A .30-06 was good enough in my day… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/74 "2002-10-14T03:02:29Z")
I believe I’ve read that the 22,000 laws specifically are on the federal level - but I’ll have to find a cite for that. Oh, and for a little anecdote: One time my friends and I went down to canton to buy a bunch of ammo at a military surplus warehouse. We decided to hit the range on the way back up. Only, we missed the right exit, and had to drive home through Cleveland. I later found out that by transporting the rifle I had at the time through cleveland, unloaded, locked in the trunk, I was commiting a **felony**. Yes, that’s right - same category as a rapist or murderer, because I happened to drive through cleveland with an unloaded rifle in my friend’s trunk. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/75 "2002-10-14T03:18:45Z")
So you are banning certain kinds of ammo. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/76 "2002-10-14T03:22:30Z")
Ummm… what kind of rifle? yes, where/when/who/what restrictions have been on firearms for quite a while. nutjobs still get their hands on them, but maybe a few potential 101 California-style incidents have been averted because some of the nutjobs couldn’t make it through the maze - we’ll never know, so this debate will continue. p.s. - there are many non-violent felonies. the comparison doesn’t work ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/77 "2002-10-14T03:57:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalashnikov \* > \*\*So you are banning certain kinds of ammo. \*\* No, I’m requireing ammo/powder sold to US residents to meet certain requirements. You can buy all the ammo you want - so drop the “you’re depriving me of my Second Amendment Rights” bit. I’m just saying you may have to pay more than it - you have no absolute right to buy the cheapest stuff in the world. Just as you must pay for seatbelts in a car, you should pay for safety provisions in your ammo (the subject of the ‘safety’ is the society, so don’t bitch about that). So, why does ammo become ‘surplus’? Are your personal safety standards less that those of the SA military? ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/78 "2002-10-14T03:58:51Z")
Surplus generally means just overrun from manufacturers filling military contracts. Ammo is just another commodigy like canteens and combat boots. There are a few types that are prohibited from civilian sales such as armor piercing but ordinary FMJ ball ammo isn’t. Ammunition has an extremely long shelf life as long as it isn’t stored in extreme heat. I’ve shot 50 year old 30 caliber ammunition in my M1 with no problem whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/79 "2002-10-14T04:10:31Z")
Thanks - another Q - what’s the smallest calibre of tracer? I hope that stuff is not readily available. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918/80 "2002-10-14T04:17:21Z")
Have tracers ever been used in any crime? Then why don’t you want it available? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-sniper-rifles/131918.md?page=5)