Banning sniper rifles?

-Why is that so hard to believe? We’ve been writing gun laws since 1932 (and before, but prior to, most of it was state-level) and in that time, very, very few-if any at all- have been repealed or revoked.

If you buy a firearm, you have to be, depending on your area, over 18, have no criminal record, not under a restraining order, and not a drug user or adjudged mentally incompetent.

The rifle has to have a barrel over 16" long, a bore of less than .500", and it has to have a traceable unique serial number. If it’s semi-automatic, it can’t have certain features, like a folding/collapsable stock, a bayonet mount, flash hider or pistol grip. It cannot hold more than 10 rounds, can’t fire from the open bolt, can’t be full-auto or select fire, or an overall length of under 26 inches.

If it’s a shotgun, it has to have a barrel over 18", an overall length of 24" (or 26? I’m looking) and if it’s used for hunting, can’t hold more than three shells. For waterfowl, you can’t use lead pellets.

Depending on where you live, the gun cannot be transported while loaded, and might need to be locked in the trunk, seperate from the ammunition. You can’t carry it, even with a concealed carry permit, into a bar, bank or restaraunt, or any place that posts a sign saying concealed carry is not allowed.

Handguns have to have a minimum barrel length of 2.5" and cannot have any method to attach a shoulder stock. To be imported, they have to have certain features like adjustable sights and other “target shooting” aspects, and must pass through rigorous importation regulations.

In places like California, there’s new “drop tests” and safety inspections that certain brands must pass before they can be sold in the State. In Massachussetts, pistols must have an accompanying fired case documented and put on file.

Suppressors, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, select-fire and full-auto weapons, non-blackpowder rifled-bore weapons with a bore of greater than .500" and certain other weapons, while not illegal, are covered and controlled with reams of paperwork, licenses, tax stamps, background checks and so forth.

It’s illegal to add a “banned” item- like a pistol grip, bayonet mount or collapsable stock- to a “post ban” semiauto rifle or shotgun. It’s also illegal to manufacture a clip, cylinder, magazine or tube that can hold more than ten rounds (for anything but law-enforcement use.) It’s illegal to sell a gun to a felon, to have one nearby during a drug transaction, or to brandish it as a threat. Can’t carry 'em on planes or into airports unless they’re locked and secured and checked with baggage.

You can’t mail or ship firearms at all, unless the recipient is a licensed FFL-holding gun dealer. Primers and ammunition can only be shipped by ground transport. In order to work on firearms as a gunsmith, you have to have mandated storage and security requirements, the aforementioned FFL (Federal Firearms License) rigorous recordkeeping, and submit to at least two unannounced inspections of the premises each year. If you pawn a gun, you have to fill out another 4473 form and make the FBI “instant check” again before getting it back.

Everything I’ve mentioned already is due to a law. There’s Federal laws, State laws and local/city laws. New York has their own laws apart from the rest of New York State, concerning firearms. What’s perfectly acceptable in Alabama- say, having a rifle in the rack in the trucks’ back window- is strictly illegal in California.

There’s ordinances against shooting inside city limits, and when hunting, you can’t shoot from, on or across a roadway. Certain areas disallow certain firearms from being used in certain hunts- for example, in many states, .223 is too small to be used on deer, and in other places, you can only use a shotgun.

That’s all just off the top of my head. While I’ll freely admit that 20K laws may or may not be close, there’s surely many, many thousands of gun-related laws already on the books.

I know, Doc, that there are a lot of gun laws. But that 20,000 number just struck me. Maybe there are that many, if you add the total of every jurisdiction, but that would be counting most of them many times.
Some of the pro’s here are attacking the anti’s for exaggerating, and then doing the same thing themselve’s.
The .50 cal practically is the proverbial “rocket launcher”. How’s that? :wink:
Peace,
mangeorge

I said nothing about banning ammo (or firearms, or privately-owned nukes).

If a survives-detonation-but-biodegrades-quickly series of markers can be found, I’d think we should look at it.

Doc -

Thanks for the overview.
I suspect crime scene cross-contamination would be minimal - the distribution pattern would indicate the primary source.

All bets would, however, be off in the event of a murder during a battlefield re-enactment :slight_smile:

So I have a general question, since no one else does. How does the ban on firearms in the UK work? Animal hunting is always a last-resort excuse for guns, so is it allowed or not? Is it simply a city ban?

What gets me about the people who want to ban sniper rifles is, WHAT THE HELL DO THEY THINK HUNTING IS? Jeez. You sneak up to a large mammal and shoot it with precision from a couple of hundred yards away.

The only way to ban sniper rifles is to ban all long guns.

That last post about how the sniper is doing what a hunter would do, except on humans, reminded me of that Flannery O’Connor story, A Late Encounter With the Enemy even though the other than the concept of hunting humans are the only thing the story and the sniper situation have in common.
My high school is a mile from the first shooting and despite all of the media coverage we aren’t really panicking, we’re just staying inside more than we usually do and avoiding gas stations.

That last post about how the sniper is doing what a hunter would do, except on humans, reminded me of that Flannery O’Connor story, A Late Encounter With the Enemy even though the other than the concept of hunting humans are the only thing the story and the sniper situation have in common.
My high school is a mile from the first shooting and despite all of the media coverage we aren’t really panicking, we’re just staying inside more than we usually do and avoiding gas stations.

That last post about how the sniper is doing what a hunter would do, except on humans, reminded me of that Flannery O’Connor story, A Late Encounter With the Enemy even though the other than the concept of hunting humans are the only thing the story and the sniper situation have in common.
My high school is a mile from the first shooting and despite all of the media coverage we aren’t really panicking, we’re just staying inside more than we usually do and avoiding gas stations.

Anyone wanna make a “three strikes” joke here?

The two primary anti-personnel weapons firing 50 Caliber rounds at this time are the Barret Sniper Rifle, currently used by the US Military and NATO, and the Dragonoff Assault rifle available through out the former Soviet Union. Having fired both, during my time in the military I can assure you that with minimal training an average marksman can hit a Watermelon from in excess of 1500 meters in light wind conditions.

That being said the trace evidence proposed for gun powder, and or the global database of weapons is simply not feasible. And people please stop regurgitating the media term ‘Sniper’ for someone hitting man sized target from less then 100 meters. I mean Joe Average Private in the military can hit a man sized target from 350 meters in under 8 weeks of basic training of which less then then thirty individual man hours are actually spent at the weapons range.

This is tragic, and it will undoubtedly spawn a whole new set of stupid litigation and lobbying but in the end the old saying is true. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

ChrisG1016

Hell, I’ll do it in 2 minutes for roughly $100 bucks. Buy new barrel, take off old barrel, put on new barrel, attach anything that you had to take off to put barrel on. Easy and legal.

Though that’s assuming you can actually see said watermelon.

Actually, Chris, the US Military doesn’t say their .50s are “antipersonnel” weapons- rather, they’re used against light armor and vehicles. That’s not to say they haven’t been used otherwise, it’s just not an official designation.

Also, the Dragunov fires a 7.62 x 54mm rimmed round, basically a somewhat larger-cased version of the 7.62 x 39mm round the AK variants use.

The Soviets did have a 12.5mm heavy machine gun, though I kind of doubt you had the opprotunity to fire it.

The precursor to the Barrett “Light .50” was of course the Browning M2 heavy machine gun. The Ma-Deuce can indeed reach out to 2K meters and greater, but at those ranges, it’s an “area suppresion” weapon, not a precision piece.

The Barrett can do considerably better, but it’s still roughly an MOA gun, or about an inch, more or less, at a hundred yards. Given favorable wind conditions, one can expect a good, carefully-loaded round to land somewhere in a 15" to 18" circle at 1,500 yards. It is, however, not for the “average” marksman, unless someone experienced with the rifle has “zeroed” it previously.

At 1,500 yards, moving the sights one thousandth of an inch means something like two yards of point-of-aim deflection at the target.

Happy- That’s the problem: If it degrades, then it changes chemically over time. Note the results of a supposedly inert taggant referenced in the previous link. Another reference noted that the taggants, being a different grain size, weight and density, can precipitate out and collect at points inside the cartridge case, which can (and has) had negative effects on performance. (As in possible injury to the shooter and/or damage to the gun.)

Also, keep in mind the taggants are microscopic- they’re dust particles and smaller. You don’t walk around and pick them up with tweezers individually, you have to take laboratory-type swabs and chemically analyze them, similar to how they test for chemical residues of the explosives themselves. The data a taggant can contain is minimal- not like a whole series of serial numbers. At best it might be able to indicate, say, Winchester powder, made in 2002.

Also, if the taggant can “degrade”, since it’s a chemical signature that holds the “data”, if that chemistry changes with time, the information it needs to convey can be lost or altered/misread.

Cross-contamination is and would be a major issue; the more a person is around firearms or places where firearms are used, or rides in the same vehicle as someone who’s been around firearms (the officers themselves mainly) the more chances of contamination. It only takes picograms of material to contaminate, and to prevent that takes clean-lab conditions: booties, gloves, Tyvek suits. If someone’s been injured, the officers and EMTs don’t have time for that sort of thing.

Actually the Barrett .50 caliber Browning is desiginated an anti-material weapon, not a anti-personal weapon.
The Dragunov sniper rifle fires the 7.62X54R Soviet round not the .50 caliber Browning. The 7.62X54R round is quite a bit smaller than the .50 caliber(12.7x99mm) round. The Soviet/Russian/Eastern European anti-material weapons such as the Simonov PTRS or the Gepard M3 fire the 14.5X114mm round.
QUOTE]Having fired both, during my time in the military I can assure you that with minimal training an average marksman can hit a Watermelon from in excess of 1500 meters in light wind conditions.
[/QUOTE]
If you had actually fired both during your time in the military I would think you would know the difference between the 7.62X54R and the 12.7x99mm round and you would actually be able the spell the word Dragunov and Barrett correctly. What branch/unit did you serve? What was your MOS? Details please.

Who cares if it was 4.45x9.62S or 8.52x1.25E ?!?!?!?!? What does it have to do with banning “sniper” rifles?

Exactly, Sam Stone!

I think without meaning to, you stated perfectly the true goal of those wanting to ban sniper rifles – to ban long guns completely. The simple fact is that there are people in the U.S. that believe that you and I should not be able to own, possess or use any firearm whatsoever for any purpose whatsoever.

To these people, this wacko in Maryland is a Godsend, just as that screwball in Stockton CA was some years back.

The OP has been answered.

Just to clarify, the shootings back east are not being done with a .50 rifle, which is apparently what the news was going to talk about (that I missed, and which prompted the OP).

FWIW, .50 Barretts are issued to the ordnance disposal unit at Edwards AFB for getting rid of unexploded bombs from a safe distance. None of these rifles in civilian hands has ever been used illegally (i.e., to commit a crime).

this is ridiculous. it isn’t the lawful gun owners committing these crimes, it is the criminals. look at virginia and maryland. when you buy a handgun, a shell from that gun is sent to the state as a ‘fingerprint.’ over 19,000 of these fingerprints have been sent, and not one of them has been found in a crime. these anti-gun nuts really piss me off.

Well yeah, poink. The moment a lawful gun owner commit’s a crime, he/she become’s a criminal. Pretty nifty way to keep the ranks of lawful gun owners squeaky clean, I’d say. :wink:
Anyway, just how dangerous is the .50? In the hands of a criminal, of course.
It’s my understanding that a round fired into a crowd would keep on penetrating people until it ran out of people to penetrate. I know that in WW! & WW2 a single .50 cal MG round would often take out several soldiers. This happened on D-day as the guys were coming off the landing craft.
Peace,
mangeorge

In the interest of GQ, I’m going to nit various technical errors.

**

That would be the SVD (Dragonov) marksman’s rifle, not an assault rifle. And it doesn’t fire browning .50, it fires 7.62x54r, a vastly different round.

**

I’d say that the claim was ridiculous. Even with known range, it’s not an easy shot with the a .50 sniper rifle, and an almost impossible shot with a 7.62x54r rifle to a qualified sniper.