Last time I chceked the Montgomery County MD police site on the “sniper”, it has pictures of possible rifles the bad guy might be using. Only one was a “sniper” type rifle (as defined in the popular imagination); the rest were “assault” type rifles.
Over the past few days, we hear locally (in the “sniper” area) that he’s possibly using an AK-74! This is not available in the US in any version, nor is its unusual 5.45 mm ammunition. (The 5.45 is unique to that weapon, whereas a number of different guns are made for .223 [5.56].)
My predicition is that he’ll be found using a Ruger Mini-14; my second guess is that he is using a Chinese-made civilianized AK clone, some of which were made to chamber .223 ammunition. His weapon choice will have been driven by economic rather than “tactical” reasons.
Huh? AK-74s (well, the semiauto versions) and their ammo are quite easily available in the US. We may not be importing any more AKs, but there are plenty still available, and 5.54 is carried by many of the larger ammo dealers.
I disagree about the gas block as a distictive feature because there are soooo many AK variants in all 3 calibers with various shapes of gas block.
Also, there are orange bakelite mags in .223 as well as 5.45.
Its easy to tell a 7.62 AK from a smaller caliber one by the size and shape of the magazine, but I don’t think there’s any obvious way to distinguish an AK-47 chambered in .223 from an AK-74 at a distance.
Kalashnikov: Sorry, I wasn’t aware that the knock-off 74 was available in the US. I have never seen one.
But my point is that it seems to me that the press or someone such as a witness is thinking that because the DC shooter is using .223 (known from various press reports) and he was (possibly) seen with a curved-magazine weapon , then he must be using a non .30 caliber (7.62 in metric) AK. Some flawed thinking may be equating the .223 in./5.56mm with the 5.45 and coming up with AK-74.
There is (AFAIK) no .223 AK-74, but there are Chinese-made civilianized AK clones (Norinco type 56?) that were made for the .223. (although I suppose that technically speaking, a civilianized .223 caliber AK clone is neither a model 47 or a 74.) Last I heard, these Chinese copies were pretty low priced when compared with something like a Colt AR-15 or an Armalite, so if the DC shooter is an individual from the fringes of society with suitably limited income, then a bargian priced import weapon would be logical.
However, I have also heard that the Chinese AK imports are of low quality and so may not be good for accurate distance shooting. That’s why I guessed a Mimi-14 as the first choice for the bad guy.
OK, so I am “obsessing” on the type of gun:
“BTW: I don’t understand this obsession with the type of gun he’s using. By focusing on the tool rather than the person, we are guilty of the same thing we accuse the anti-gun crowd of doing.”
Reason for “obsessing”: The OP asks about banning “sniper” rifles. My point: If he is using the type of gun I (and others on this thread) think he might be, then the DC Area shooter is NOT using a “sniper” rifle at all. Thus, a ban on said rifles (however tightly or loosely defined) would be an illogical and irrational response to this particular series of crimes.
And then from there, the discussion of seemingly irrational and illogical responses evolves into a discussion of gun control laws.
There are quite a few different varieties of AK chambered in .223, some of which are as inexpensive as any AK in 7.62, and some of which are more costly than an inexpensive AR-15. Their accuracy varies widely too, so there’s really no way to draw any conclusions from this.
CNN.com has reported the witness who claimed to have seen an AK-74 has admitted to police he was inside the store at the time of the shooting and saw nothing.
Knock-off seems a deragatory term. The 74 type rifle I have is basically a romanian military rifle with a few things shaved off and a hole not drilled in the receiver, made by the same factories and such as their military issue weapons.
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I believe the name of the .223 chinese AK is a type 84. If I recall, the type 56 is their AKM/AK47 hybrid. And they’re not cheap - chinese models like that are prebans and command a premium, slightly more expensive than a good quality ar15.
There are .223 military AKs in the world, and as far as I know, the most common Russian export is the AK-101. It wouldn’t be accurate to call a .223 AK an ‘aka-101’ automatically, because the name implies other features of the model.
If he was looking for a cheap .223 AK type rifle, the sar-3 is the way to go. It’s based off a prototype ak-74 conversion the romanian military made for NATO submission, and is possibly the most common .223 AK variant in the US.
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Chinese AKs are generally of fairly good quality, actually, as far as I know. And mini-14s aren’t known for accuracy - and it’s not uncommon to find a mini-14 that struggles to hit 9 or 10 MOA, which is far worse than even low quality AK models.
I have seen 30-06 punch through 3/4 inch steel plate about 50% of the time. I would imagine if it was case hardened or anything else to make it more “projectile resistant” it wouldn’t make it through.
Right, the Chinese Norinco AKs are rather good quality. I have one (in 7.62) and just by working the bolt back and forth you can tell it’s more carefully made than some other AKs.
I also have a SAR-3 and despite its low price (under $400) its a decent gun (although the fit and finish isn’t as good as the Norinco), and great fun to shoot. Its no wonder they’re so popular.
The AK-47/74 design is a very robust one that doesn’t require lots of tight tolerance dimensions as the M-16 family does. The very design features that may make it look cheap make it very reliable under harsh conditions and have little effect on accuracy. A Chinese AK with a good barrel is reliable and accurate.
IMO the Mini-14/30 suffers from a critical design flaw. The gas block and operating rod were the only big departure from the M-14 design it copied. The heavy operating rod slams against the gas block on every shot, pushing the barrel upward slightly. This can make it hard to maintain zero and causes the barrel to “walk” as the barrel gets warm causing shots to string vertically. That’s why I unloaded my mini-30 and bought an AK.
I found info on the penetrating power of the .50 cal round. What a beast. It actually can take down a plane. I gotta admit, the idea of someone firing one of the things in my 'hood does make me a little jumpy. But that’s true for any gun.
Now I think I’ll see if I can find the book cited above by Riboflavin.
Peace,
mangeorge
So can a .30 caliber (same size as used in deer rifles). British WWII fighters and bombers were armed with .303s. All it takes is one hit in the right place.
Don’t you think, Johnny L.A., that it’s just a little disingenuous to equate the effectiveness (dangerousness ) of a .30 with a .50 round? Why on earth, then, would anybody go to the expense and trouble to mount or carry the bigger, heavier gun? Because it makes a bigger hole, that’s why.
Technically a .177 pellet, in the right place, could bring down a plane. It’s a matter of likelihood, I would think.
'Scuse my primitive grammar.
Peace,
mangeorge
Not at all. It is a fact that most or all British fighters and bombers in WWII were armed with .303 machineguns. German aircraft did have cannons, but their machinegun was 7.92mm – which is pretty much .30 caliber.
Ah, the “Golden BB”. I think that is a bit of hyperbole that pilots use to illustrate that you can be the hottest stick around and still be brought down by a lucky shot. I don’t think there’s ever been a case of an aircraft actually being brought down by a BB.
But what of “.50 caliber sniper rifles”? They haven’t been used in a crime. They’re too expensive to consider them a likely weapon for a criminal. They’re impossible to hide under your jacket. The recoil is massive. All in all, a .50 is one of the worst weapons for a criminal to use that I can think of. If there’s no problem, there is no need to ban it.
No, no. Not ban it. I didn’t say that. And I’ve never heard of the “Golden BB”. You might have guessed that IANAFP. But I would bet, if given the choice, fighter pilots would opt for the bigger bullets.
Let’s keep it real, OK? I’m daydreaming about some drug-crazed nutcase stealing a gun from a responsible gun owner, and popping off a few rounds in my neighborhood. Now would I prefer it to be a .50 cal single shot, or a .30 cal single shot.
I think Johnny L.A. was trying to comment on the fact that you said “it can take down a plane!”, when it’s excessively unlikely that a .50 sniper rifle would do such a thing. And when he mentioned that smaller rounds, could, indeed, also take down a plane, you accused him of hyperbole - when in fact, it seems that you were the one that engaged in hyperbole in the first place and he merely commented on that with his example.
Mods: This isn’t any attempt at an argument, I’m just trying to clarify what seems to have been a miscommunication.
NAFP. Okay. I’ll try to quell your fears. The .50 that people are talking about here comes in two models: bolt-action and semi-automatic. Bolt-action means that the shooter rotates a bolt about 90° and draws is back a few inches to allow a round to come into position. Then he has to push the bolt forward and rotate it 90° to put it back into its closed position to put the round into the chamber and cock the action. Then he can pull the trigger. In a semi-automatic rifle, ejection of the spent case, cocking, and loading of a new round is automatic. But you only get one round for every pull of the trigger. By no means is this a machine gun. Also, the maximum magazine capacity is 10 rounds.
I talked to an ordnance disposal type at the local air force base, and he assured me that a .50 rifle is not something that you can fire from the shoulder without injury. They mount theirs on a vehicle. He said that the rifle can be fired from a bipod, but they definitely prefer using a pintle mound on a humvee.
And finally, unless you’re a cop, a dealer or a movie studio it’s against the law to own a machine gun in California.
So to recapitulate:
Machine guns are illegal under California state law except under very limited circumstances. (And federal laws are very strict as well.)
“Nutcases” are very unlikely to steal one of these rifles, and if they did they’d probably only injure themselves. (I’ll bet it’s much more likely that a drunk will steal a car and kill someone – which has happened, unlike violence with a civilian .50 rifle.)
The rifles in question are not machine guns and have limited capacity.
It actually can take down a plane. I gotta admit, the idea of someone firing one of the things in my 'hood does make me a little jumpy. But that’s true for any gun.
But I would bet, if given the choice, fighter pilots would opt for the bigger bullets.