# Banning the use of hand held cell phones while driving ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116 "2011-10-28T20:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/61 "2011-11-02T03:22:09Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I carry mine from home to work and back. A lot of people in my province do that, despite there being restictions on cell phone use while driving here (hands-free only is permitted). Even if one does not use handsfree, it is no big deal to pull off to make calls. Or you can use the phone sitting on your desk for free. I have a Google voice number, so my missed calls just go to my Gmail. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/62 "2011-11-02T03:41:39Z")
Just wondering, How are you realistically going to get caught texting whike driving? If they even suspected you of it, could they get the record from the phone company or something to prove it? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/63 "2011-11-02T04:09:47Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Gonzo, why is it that now half of the people who do not have cell phones drive right through when you are trying to cross, whereas previously they did not? They are not paying attention. They blow around the corner driving one handed. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/64 "2011-11-02T05:29:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They are not paying attention. They blow around the corner driving one handed. I take it those are the ones using cell phones. What I asked about was the ones not using cell phones, who according to you drive right at you: > [@gonzomax](#): > > It used to be they waited for me and my beagles to cross. But not now. generally they drive right at us. Joe, I think you will find that a great many people use cell phones in a great many places and circumstances, such that they tend to carry them about with them much of the time. Not being able to use a cell in certain places, such as while driving, or not preferring to use a cell in certain places, such as in an office with land line, does not mean that they will give up using cell phones entirely. They’ll just carry them about, including bringing them along in vehicles, but not use them when prohibited, rather than say “Gosh, darn, I wish I had my cell with me, but since I will not carry it in the car now that am not allowed to use one in a car, I can only use it at home where I left it.” Have you come across any stats that establish that people cut back on carrying cell phones once full or partial call-while-driving bans were put in place? When the partial ban in my province was instituted, I didn’t hear a peep out of anyone, or the industry, concerning this issue, and I have not come across anyone who gave up their cell because of it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/65 "2011-11-02T05:44:48Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I take it those are the ones using cell phones. What I asked about was the ones not using cell phones, who according to you drive right at you: > > Joe, I think you will find that a great many people use cell phones in a great many places and circumstances, such that they tend to carry them about with them much of the time. Not being able to use a cell in certain places, such as while driving, or not preferring to use a cell in certain places, such as in an office with land line, does not mean that they will give up using cell phones entirely. They’ll just carry them about, including bringing them along in vehicles, but not use them when prohibited, rather than say “Gosh, darn, I wish I had my cell with me, but since I will not carry it in the car now that am not allowed to use one in a car, I can only use it at home where I left it.” > > Have you come across any stats that establish that people cut back on carrying cell phones once full or partial call-while-driving bans were put in place? When the partial ban in my province was instituted, I didn’t hear a peep out of anyone, or the industry, concerning this issue, and I have not come across anyone who gave up their cell because of it. To be perfectly honest, sometimes the ones without cell phones go through the lights too. But i suspect some people do not know pedestrians and beagles have the right of way. There is a difference in cell phone users. They don’t realize they ran the light and almost hit us. They seen chagrined when they realize it. Hell I wait now. it is too dangerous to walk with the lights. I wait until no turners are there ,then we run across. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/66 "2011-11-02T05:53:01Z")
Have you tried sending out some Jack Russell Terriers across first as expendable decoys? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/67 "2011-11-02T09:03:04Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Just wondering, How are you realistically going to get caught texting whike driving? If they even suspected you of it, could they get the record from the phone company or something to prove it? I’m certain the police can obtain this information with a warrant and I think they can get the information without a warrant in some states. There are active court cases about whether the police can obtain your location information without a warrant. [http://www.privacyalerts.org/phone-records.html](http://www.privacyalerts.org/phone-records.html) One should also remember that text messages do not go away when you delete them from your phone and also it is SOP for lawyers to subpoena your cell phone records in the case of an accident. [http://www.alliancetac.com/?PAGE\_ID=2451](http://www.alliancetac.com/?PAGE_ID=2451) [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2554086/posts](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2554086/posts) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/68 "2011-11-02T09:40:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There is a difference in cell phone users. They don’t realize they ran the light and almost hit us. They seen chagrined when they realize it. Hell I wait now. it is too dangerous to walk with the lights. I wait until no turners are there ,then we run across. Driver Distraction is not a new issue. I got T-boned in 91 by a person running a red-light and I think she was trying to light a cigarette when she ran the light. Cell Phones just make it more obvious that the driver isn’t paying attention. I got rear ended about 10 years ago when I stopped for a fire truck and the woman behind me was talking to her passengers and hit me. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/69 "2011-11-02T10:26:55Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > i When the partial ban in my province was instituted, I didn’t hear a peep out of anyone, or the industry, concerning this issue, and I have not come across anyone who gave up their cell because of it. The Ontario ban doesn’t apply to handsfree phone use and is useless in preventing distraction. There also aren’t any points on the ticket. People just buy a headset if they do much calling from the car. Frankly, considering headsets are so cheap, I 'm surprised that they wrote 46,000 tickets in the first year. I got one for less than $4 with shipping from Amazon. [http://blog.legalaction.ca/ontario-drivers-slow-to-adopt-cellphone-ban/](http://blog.legalaction.ca/ontario-drivers-slow-to-adopt-cellphone-ban/) [http://handsfreeinfo.com/ontario-distracted-driving-news](http://handsfreeinfo.com/ontario-distracted-driving-news) I was more surprised that the Toronto School board voted to allow students to use cell phones in the classroom. Don’t they think that distraction is a problem? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/70 "2011-11-02T12:00:08Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Just wondering, How are you realistically going to get caught texting whike driving? If they even suspected you of it, could they get the record from the phone company or something to prove it? In Ontario, it is primarily by way of the officer’s testimony that he or she saw the person texting. Just as it is with tickets for running stop signs and the like, when an officer’s testimony of first-hand observation is contradicted by a driver’s testimony, the court usually accepts the officer’s version. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The Ontario ban doesn’t apply to handsfree phone use and is useless in preventing distraction. That’s why I called it a partial ban. It does nothing to stop the distraction of focusing on the phone conversation, but does stop the distraction of fiddling about with the buttons. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > There also aren’t any points on the ticket. Six points for careless driving. The way it plays out is if the officer sees the driver using a cell phone in non-voice mode, the ticket will be for just that and will not attract points. If, while using the cell phone in non-voice mode the driver makes another driving error (for example,weaving or difting out of one’s lane), then there will be two tickets – one for the phone misuse (no points) and one for careless driving (six points). > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I was more surprised that the Toronto School board voted to allow students to use cell phones in the classroom. Don’t they think that distraction is a problem? There are not enough vehicular collisions inside schools to justiy a cell phone ban inside schools. Individual teachers can still ban cellphone use from their classrooms if they chose. Students can now use there phones in school while out of class. This way kids can use the phones to socialize and call their parents, but not during class when it would be a distraction. The driving force behind the ban revocation was parents who were frustrated by not being able to coordinate pick-up times. (Times are a changin’. Back when I was a kid, parents did not pick up children from school.) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/71 "2011-11-02T14:27:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I wonder how many people won’t bother to have a cell phone in their car if they can’t legally use them, except in an emergency? This is just silly. I don’t use my cell phone in my car, but I like to have it for when I’m at my destination. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/72 "2011-11-02T18:14:58Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Six points for careless driving. The way it plays out is if the officer sees the driver using a cell phone in non-voice mode, the ticket will be for just that and will not attract points. If, while using the cell phone in non-voice mode the driver makes another driving error (for example,weaving or difting out of one’s lane), then there will be two tickets – one for the phone misuse (no points) and one for careless driving (six points). If I was reading correctly, you can be cited for careless driving even if you aren’t using a cellphone, so that is actually independent and could have be used without the cellphone ban. Individual teachers can still ban cellphone use from their classrooms if they chose. Students can now use there phones in school while out of class. This way kids can use the phones to socialize and call their parents, but not during class when it would be a distraction. The driving force behind the ban revocation was parents who were frustrated by not being able to coordinate pick-up times. (Times are a changin’. Back when I was a kid, parents did not pick up children from school.) [/QUOTE] Teachers can ban cellphones, but it apparently not the default. Under what conditions would cellphones not be a distraction in the classroom and why transportation coordination couldn’t happen between classes? We also have the issue of students making calls their parent can’t legally answer. The Ontario ban has been in effect for over 20 months and I’ve haven’t seen any articles about the lives being saved. I saw one place that there were more fatalties in Ottawa in 2010. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/73 "2011-11-02T21:15:57Z")
It’s too soon to see what the effect has been in Ontario. One would do better to look at New York, which was the first state to institute a hand-held cell phone ban, back in 2001. The results get a meh for the countryside, but for urban areas there has been a significant improvement, which to me makes sense, for the more traffic, the greater the odds of crashing when distracted. [https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/shj/www/NRJ\_TRA.pdf](https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/shj/www/NRJ_TRA.pdf) > [@](#): > > The results presented in Section 3 indicate that after banning hand-held cell phone use while driving, 46 counties in New York experienced lower fatal automobile accident rates, 10 of which did so at a statistically significant level, and all 62 counties experienced lower personal injury automobile accident rates, 46 of which did so at a statistically significant level. > > The analysis strongly suggests that the mean fatal accident rate measure decreased at a significant level for New York State (p-value of 0.0165, see Table 5), for New York City and upstate New York (p-values of 0.0008 and 0.0298, respectively, see Table 5), and for four of the 10 groups partitioned by similar licensed driver density. Three of these four groups contained high density New York City counties (New York County, Bronx, and Queens with p-values of 0.0190, 0.0006, and 0.0044, respectively, see Table 5). The fourth group contained the lowest density subset of upstate New York counties (Seneca–Hamilton, with a p-value of 0.0404, see Table 5). > > The mean personal injury accident rate measure decreased at a significant level for all groups in each of the three cases examined (see Table 6). Moreover, it has been observed that, in general, the personal injury accident rate decrease is more substantive in counties with a high density of licensed drivers (see Fig. 1). Overall, the personal injury accident rate proved to be a more appropriate measure than the fatal accident rate for the analysis. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/74 "2011-11-02T22:10:41Z")
Does it matter if cell phone bans are ineffective, because at least [one study](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123084040) says they are? IMO, ban distracted driving (as many jurisdictions have already done). It doesn’t matter if you’re calling on a cell, doing your makeup, or dancing the hokey-pokey. If you aren’t controlling your vehicle, you’re a hazard. There’s no need to specifically call out cell phone use. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/75 "2011-11-03T02:03:25Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It’s too soon to see what the effect has been in Ontario. One would do better to look at New York, which was the first state to institute a hand-held cell phone ban, back in 2001. The results get a meh for the countryside, but for urban areas there has been a significant improvement, which to me makes sense, for the more traffic, the greater the odds of crashing when distracted. > > [https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/shj/www/NRJ\_TRA.pdf](https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/shj/www/NRJ_TRA.pdf) You should have read the report more closely, especially section 4.2. > [@](#): > > Third, proper enforcement of hand-held cell phone ban laws, and hence, driver compliance is an important issue. McCartt and Geary (2003, 2004) reported that the hand-held cell phone user rate while driving in New York dropped from 2.3% (before the law was enacted) to 1.1% in the first few months immediately following the enactment of the law. However, this rate rebounded back up to 2.1% about a year later. \*\*Since the initial drop in hand-held cell phone use while driving was not sustained, it is possible that the reduction in automobile accident rates in New York may be due to other factors. \*\* > > Fourth, data linking the number of cell phone subscribers to automobile accident **rates suggest that increased cell phone use does not translate into increased automobile accident rates.** In particular, there has been an exponential growth in the number of cell phone subscribers from the late-1980s, while automobile accident rates in the US during this same time period have remained at a fairly constant level (see Fig. 2). Driving statistics from the National Center for Statistics and Analysis of the NHTSA reveals that from 1994 to 2004, the number of cell phone subscribers increased 655%, with their average monthly minutes-of-use increasing 3900%, while annual automobile accident rates reported decreased by approximately 5% over the same time period (Information Please Database, 2007; NHTSA, 2008). These facts should not go unnoticed, even though it is likely that the changes in the transportation policy and the advances in safety in the automotive industry between 1988 and 2006 have influenced the accident rates. As of February 2007, sixteen states had published data on the number of automobile accidents that cited hand-held cell phones or radios as a causal factor. **These data indicate that hand-held cell phone use is reported as a factor in less than 1% of automobile accidents** (Sundeen, 2007). Although such data are controversial and potentially unreliable, due to the challenge in knowing the precise cause of accidents and how such information is reported, **it does suggest that hand-held cell phone use may account for a negligible percentage of automobile accidents, which means that if such accidents could be completely eliminated by hand-held cell phone ban laws, there would be only a slight reduction in the total number of automobile accidents.** ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/76 "2011-11-03T03:13:40Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > Is it common sense or an infringement of freedom ? Common sense would be to inject a shot of sodium chloride (common salt) directly into the hypothalamus of a driver using a cellphone… and see what happens. Given that most people are stupid and ego-centric, allowing them to use cellphones and endangering other human beings in the process is criminal, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/77 "2011-11-03T03:33:23Z")
Of course I read 4.2. The section that I cited was 4.1 Summary, and the following section that you quoted was 4.2 Limitations. If you believe that the limitations invalidate the summary, that is your choice. I read the limitations as being limitations that do not invalidate the summary. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/78 "2011-11-03T04:07:48Z")
I’m only here to say that the reason ‘hand held cell phones while driving’ need to be banned is simply due to incompetence. I quite literally witnessed a teenager driving in the middle of the road talking on a cell, then saw him get on an entrance ramp…nuff said :eek:. (I believe there was a crash on that highway moments later, most likely it was that individual who caused it :smack:) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/79 "2011-11-03T04:14:25Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Does it matter if cell phone bans are ineffective, because at least [one study](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123084040) says they are? > > IMO, ban distracted driving (as many jurisdictions have already done). It doesn’t matter if you’re calling on a cell, doing your makeup, or dancing the hokey-pokey. If you aren’t controlling your vehicle, you’re a hazard. There’s no need to specifically call out cell phone use. Is the hokey -pokey contingent as large as cell phone users? If so you have an argument. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116/80 "2011-11-03T19:18:55Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This. I no longer permit myself to use the cell phone while driving (unless I’m stuck in traffic and crawling along at sub-walking speeds) because of an incident in which I found myself nearly driving into oncoming traffic while using my hands-free phone. I was lucky not to cause an accident, and though there were no cops around to give me a ticket, I richly deserved one. I concur. I caused a fender-bender while dailing a phone and making a left turn in 2005. I was ticketed and was totally at fault and completely guilty. Paid my fine and vowed never again. I turn it off while driving now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/banning-the-use-of-hand-held-cell-phones-while-driving/601116.md?page=5)