# "Bar" and "Ben"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-and-ben/24762
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 6, 2000, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-and-ben/24762 "2000-07-06T15:50:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 5
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2000, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-and-ben/24762/1 "2000-07-06T15:50:17Z")
I’m under the impression that both of these are Hebrew words for “son” or “son of.”
Is there some finer distinction in their meanings, though?
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-and-ben/24762/2 "2000-07-06T16:02:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mjollnir \*
> \*\*I’m under the impression that both of these are Hebrew words for “son” or “son of.”
>
> Is there some finer distinction in their meanings, though? \*\*
No, that is incorrect.
Bar is Aramaic for son of.
In Hebrew Bar means purity. Psalms 24:3 says “N’kei cafaim u’bar laivav” which means clean of hands and \* pure \* of heart.
Ben is the proper Hebrew word for son.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@surel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/surel)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-and-ben/24762/3 "2000-07-06T20:27:24Z")
Oh, nifty. Along the same lines, what is the difference between Bas and Bat? I know girls can have a Bas Mitzvah or a Bat Mitzvah, but I don’t know anyone who knows why there are two terms and how they differ.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2000, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-and-ben/24762/4 "2000-07-06T20:35:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by surel \*
> \*\*Oh, nifty. Along the same lines, what is the difference between Bas and Bat? I know girls can have a Bas Mitzvah or a Bat Mitzvah, but I don’t know anyone who knows why there are two terms and how they differ. \*\*
The difference between Bat and Bas is that there is no difference. They both mean “daughter.”
So, why the two different pronounciations?
The last letter of Bat/Bas is a Tav. Sometimes, for grammatical reasons, a Tav can have a dot in it. When a Tav has a dot in it, Ashkenazic Jews pronounce the letter with a T sound, but without it, the Tav has an S sound. Sephardic Jews always pronounce it with a T sound. Since in the vast majority of cases the word Bas/Bat has the Tav without a dot, Ashkenazic Jews use Bas. Sephardim, however, use Bat.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2000, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-and-ben/24762/5 "2000-07-06T23:06:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \*
> Ashkenazic Jews use Bas. Sephardim, however, use Bat.
Minor clarification:
Standard Israeli (Modern Hebrew) pronunciation follows the Sephardic model. The Ashkenazi pronunciation is used mainly by the elderly (independent of affiliation) and the Orthodox. Non-Orthodox denominations almost universally use the Sephardic pronunciation in or out of Israel (again, except for those who are older or who were raised in more traditional communities).
AFAIK, this is not a halachic issue, merely one of community custom (unless _minhag d’malchuta dina_-‘the custom of the community is the law’ applies here).
FWIW, while I say _Shabba **t** Shalom_ in Hebrew, I still say _Gut Shabbo **s** _ in Yiddish, being a nice Ashkenazi boy myself.
;j-Hey, can we get one of these without the _peyos_ (being an Orthodox custom, I’ll use the Ashkenazi pronunciation in this case) for us non-O?
Rick