# Bar staff changing tip amount after signing of bill - illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 16, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466 "2004-07-16T19:07:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/21 "2004-07-20T06:05:01Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > 10 Canadian dollars? If so, that’s about $7.50 US, which is still steep, but not outrageously so. Maybe I’m not hitting the right places then. Depending what I’m drinking it on average costs me $5 a drink, if I’m paying $10 I’d better be getting pony’s (which is about what I pay for them). A jug of beer ranges from $10-16 depending what I’m drinking and the specials. It might not be outrageous, but I’ve not encountered it. All I can say is I’d hope they’re selling the good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![lemon\_martini2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lemon\_martini2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemon_martini2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/22 "2004-07-20T09:58:17Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Something I learned the hard way. > > Normally when I go to a restraunt I’ll pay the bill with a CC then tip the waitperson with cash. So when I go to sign the tab I just leave the tip space blank. Well I’ve found you shouldn’t do that. If your not going to tip on the CC write down -0- in the tip space or else a waitperson might take it upon themselves to write down a tip FOR you. Like they did with me. :mad: > > What really had me pissed about that is the whole reason I tip with cash is so the waitperson doesn’t have to claim those tips on their paycheck. Or at least let them decide if they want to or not. > > And yes I know shame on me for helping someone cheat Unclesam… Excellent,but what the hell is a waitperson? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/23 "2004-07-20T10:12:43Z")
Are you guys absolutely sure this is illegal? Like, does anyone have a cite? The only reason I ask is because I worked in a couple different restaurants in high school and I would frequently here the waitresses say “I’m going to 15 percent that table” with complete sincerity. I didn’t really think much of it at the time but I guess I was under the impression that if a table paid with a card and didn’t tip, the waitress could add 15% to their bill. Come to think of it, don’t a lot of restaurant menus say that they reserve the right to add a tip to your credit card if you don’t leave one? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/24 "2004-07-20T10:44:08Z")
You guys can ignore my above post. I think I see the difference between what my waitress friends did and what happened to the OP’s friend. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/25 "2004-07-20T13:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I was under the impression that if a table paid with a card and didn’t tip, the waitress could add 15% to their bill. > > Come to think of it, don’t a lot of restaurant menus say that they reserve the right to add a tip to your credit card if you don’t leave one? I never heard of or saw either situation in more than 10 years of restaurant work as a bartender, server, and manager. (Not that it doesn’t happen somewhere; I just never heard of it.) With your second question, some menus do state that a certain percentage will be added for parties over a certain size, but I’ve never seen, e.g., “Please note, we will add a tip to your card if you fail to leave one.” The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/26 "2004-07-20T13:59:53Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > some menus do state that a certain percentage will be added for parties over a certain size, but I’ve never seen, e.g., “Please note, we will add a tip to your card if you fail to leave one.” The mind boggles. This was in North Carolina, at two different restaurants between '94 and '99. Maybe it’s different in different areas and maybe it’s even different there now? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/27 "2004-07-20T14:27:14Z")
Also, it means that restaurants would have been free to add on tips without the customer’s knowledge if they were using a credit card, but they cannot add on tips for people paying with cash. It seems weird, if this were legal, that the state would agree that cheap credit-card users can be shown what’s what but cheap cash tippers cannot. Also, how would the restaurant account for people who pay with a credit card yet leave a cash tip? According to the slip, they left “nothing.” The system seems rife with fraud and theft possibilities. Anyway, not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just shocked that a restaurant would stay in business with this practice. For all the horrible places I worked, I guess they weren’t as completely horrible as they could have been. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/28 "2004-07-20T15:30:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you guys absolutely sure this is illegal? Like, does anyone have a cite? Hmmm…to take the property of another without right or permission = stealing. Cite: The Ten Commandments 😉 > [@](#): > > Also, it means that restaurants would have been free to add on tips without the customer’s knowledge if they were using a credit card, but they cannot add on tips for people paying with cash. It seems weird, if this were legal, that the state would agree that cheap credit-card users can be shown what’s what but cheap cash tippers cannot. I think the other poster must be incorrect. It _is_ legal to charge an automatic gratuity if it is clearly marked on the menu that they are doing it. They will do it accross the board and not to CC users only. Most restaurants will only do this for large parties. I do hate the practice and will generally avoid any restaurant with this practice. I usually tip 20% but reserve the right to give less or none if the situation warrants it. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/29 "2004-07-20T15:47:26Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the other poster must be incorrect. It is legal to charge an automatic gratuity if it is clearly marked on the menu that they are doing it. They will do it accross the board and not to CC users only. Exactly. I am sure there exist restaurants whose menus state that they add an automatic gratuity for parties over a certain size or even for ALL parties - e.g., it’s a “service compris” place - but I can’t see how they can state, or legally practice, “We add on tips for **credit-card users** who don’t leave tips and you have no say in the matter, so tough tooties.” Boy, if I ever ran across that, I’d be filing complaints and notifying TV stations all over the place! ---
**Author:** ![Daftbugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Daftbugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daftbugger)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/30 "2004-07-20T15:53:20Z")
With large groups, you don’t HAVE to pay it. I’ve been in alarge group before and only paid 5% of the 10% tip for large groups as we had appalling service. Luckily, it seems, we all paid cash, so there wasn’t much they could do about it. ---
**Author:** ![KP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a9adbd/32.png) [@KP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KP)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/31 "2004-07-20T17:13:55Z")
I don’t care what they put on the menu. It’s illegal - lots of posted terms and conditions are. They just hope that few people call them on it. (Also, many waitpersons get more upset over being stiffed at the table -when there’s a person to get mad at- than at losing even more money in chargebacks later. Some people just can’t fully wrap their heads around “an invisible hand” reaching into their paycheck – or conversely, into my credit card bill. A signed credit slip is a contract for a payment _in a specific amount_. A payee can’t unilaterally change that amount after the fact without notice. It’s not like a penalty or fee in a negotiated contract. They “reserve the right”? _ **You can’t reserve a right unless you have that right to begin with.** _ They don’t have the right to charge money to my card without my knowledge and permission. Stating that a X% tip will be added to parties of 8 or more is fine _but they can’t add it after you sign the slip_. If you must, fill in the tip on my check before I sign it: maybe I won’t mind, or notice or raise a stink, but you don’t have a right to reach into my pocket after payment is made and accepted. That suggests a belief that I _might not_ have agreed, had I been consulted. A waitress once added a 25% tip to my check because they “were short-handed so two waitresses worked my table”. Staffing is their problem. I didn’t get anything extra, and if they’d served me badly, they’d have deserved little or no tip. (Predictably, it was the worse of the two waitresses who submitted the slip and claimed she couldn’t change it; even the other waitress thought it was wrong.) I raised a stink, and gave the good waitress 20% cash on my way out. (I’d have given her the whole 25%, because it’s not easy standing up to a pushy person you have to work with, but my companion was pretty outraged, and even 20% on the whole meal is effectively 40% if she did half the work) The bad waitress seems to have been fired [I never actually asked, but I never saw her again.] Still, the entire incident was legal - they presented me with the check+tip to sign. I reserve the right not to leave no tip or a low tip, _and I have that right in the first place._ That’s why it’s a tip. Personally, I’d rather see waitresses paid more to begin with, and let the tip be an optional reward. Sure, that takes away the “punitive” option for poor service, but I think telling or writing the manager is a better way to address bad waitstaff. I want them corrected -or maybe fired, if they won’t change. Making it harder for them to pay the rent is too indirect. The worst waitresses rarely make the connection. It’s always “crummy customers” to them. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/32 "2004-07-20T20:23:51Z")
> [@KP](#): > > I don’t care what they put on the menu. It’s illegal - lots of posted terms and conditions are. . . . 'Swhat I was gonna say. Many such notices are unenforceable; you can’t take away another person’s rights just by posting a sign. (Maybe Dahmer coulda got off if he’d posted a little notice that said “I reserve the right to kill you and eat you and have sex with your corpse.”) ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466/33 "2004-07-21T00:10:30Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > Also, how would the restaurant account for people who pay with a credit card yet leave a cash tip? According to the slip, they left “nothing.” The system seems rife with fraud and theft possibilities. This one, I can answer: the restaurant can’t account for whether those customers tipped at all, which is _just fine by them_. When leaving a cash tip, you write “CASH” in big letters in the blank, write the total underneath, and leave it at that. The tip is a gift from you to the server, and it then becomes a matter of the server’s honesty and personal preference whether (s)he declares that income as taxable. No computerized record is kept of the tips, and so the employer saves on Social Security / Payroll taxes, and the employee makes a little extra on the side. As a person who has worked the service industry in a tourist town, I don’t think I ever knew anyone who _did_ declare their full tips. Tipped employees make a lower wage per hour than the regular employees (when I worked, it was $2.15 compared to about $6.00) so the formula was usually “figure out what comes to about $6.00/hr and declare that – anything else you split with the busboys and pocket.” As a former busboy and cabana boy, I _always_ make a point to tip cash, and tip well. It’s the service industry’s own Social Security program. Is it legal? No, almost certainly not. Does it happen every day, in every restaurant in America? Almost certainly. Is there any way to stop it other than a full-body search of the waitresses? Hmmm… sign me up for the enforcement branch. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bar-staff-changing-tip-amount-after-signing-of-bill-illegal/255466.md?page=1)