# Barack Obama - America's passionate patriot **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801 "2008-06-30T19:17:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/21 "2008-06-30T21:42:20Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] It blows my mind that _anyone_ gives a shit about the pins and prayers and flags. We know that it doesn’t matter. [/QUOTE] Well, you _think_ it doesn’t matter. We know Obama is a devout Christian and a Senator, so who are you to say it doesn’t matter to him? My parents are Democrats and they have a flagpole in the front yard. Not attached to the house - a tall one stuck in the ground. It was a pain to put in. Who are you to say it doesn’t or shouldn’t matter to them? If you want Democrats to beat this perception about being less patriotic, perhaps you should open your mind to these symbols of patriotism yourself. They will only become right-wing symbols if the left stops using them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/22 "2008-06-30T22:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] There are lots of examples of this - from Katha Pollitt not wanting to fly the flag after 9/11 to the various antics of Ward Churchill. Now, I’ll be the first to say these folks aren’t representative. Doesn’t matter - they are newsworthy and can cause an image problem. The Republican Party doesn’t suffer a similar problem with regard to patriotism by and large, but it sure does with regard to a host of other issues, many of which are driven by a similar fringe. For instance, I don’t think the Republican Party as a whole is racist in the least, but dig deep enough and you’ll find some kook somewhere who does something stupid at a Republican event, or runs as a Republican with an awful record the party has to disavow. And this feeds a perception that the party has to fight against. [/QUOTE] The problem for Republicans is that Obama is redefining patriotism as being a virture in the classical liberal sense (the second sense dealt with in the article cited by **Captain Amazing** ) — that is, an allegience to the ideals the flag ostensibly represents rather than to the mere rag itself. This allows the unification of diverse people. Both those who do and those who don’t wear flag pins can honor their country through service and sacrifice. It won’t take a whole lot to rally Americans around his vision of patriotism because it has a ring of truth and of worth to it. It’s something intrinsic to the American outlook which does not require any symbol to stir or sustain it. This sort of thing is why so many informed and thoughtful people — not unlike yourself — have taken a liking to Obama, but expressed the right way will resonate very well with Old Country Joe and Aunt Martha. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/23 "2008-06-30T22:16:12Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Well, you _think_ it doesn’t matter. We know Obama is a devout Christian and a Senator, so who are you to say it doesn’t matter to him? My parents are Democrats and they have a flagpole in the front yard. Not attached to the house - a tall one stuck in the ground. It was a pain to put in. Who are you to say it doesn’t or shouldn’t matter to them? If you want Democrats to beat this perception about being less patriotic, perhaps you should open your mind to these symbols of patriotism yourself. They will only become right-wing symbols if the left stops using them. [/QUOTE] Listen, my husband has an american flag and a POW flag flying on the garage (and they’re plenty big enough, too. He’s just as patriotic as the flag-in-the-ground set 😉 ). The point is, anyone can fly a flag, wear a pin, or chant “god bless America” 'til they’re red, white, and blue in the face. But it doesn’t make them patriotic or conscientious citizens. It might make you feel better, but_it doesn’t matter_. Obama knows this. He wants to be president, he was taken to task on it, so he’s wearing the pin. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/24 "2008-06-30T22:22:03Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] If you want Democrats to beat this perception about being less patriotic, perhaps you should open your mind to these symbols of patriotism yourself. They will only become right-wing symbols if the left stops using them. [/QUOTE] If you want Democrats to fail in beating that perception, you’ll pause a moment to consider what those symbols mean — and what they do not mean. If your allegiance to them leads you to demonize people who have served and sacrificed in ways different from you, then you will empower the Democrats to beat it. Obama’s vision is an unselfish one of love of the whole country, not one’s own slice of it. It’s easy to stick a rag in a yard and say it means you’re better than everyone else. It’s hard to put into practice love of the ideal, but Americans love to take up that challenge. It’s what can make her not just great, but good. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/25 "2008-06-30T22:51:34Z")
Uh huh. Well, I’ve done my own part, modest as it was. Continue to do so, in fact, in several ways - and I do this without putting yellow ribbons or lapel pins anywhere as a general rule. So I’m on board with this concept. The problem is that I’m uncomfortable taking people to task for the symbols they choose. Someone mentioned yellow ribbons in a thread before, and I remarked that I’ve seen them alike on the cars of dittoheads who sacrifice nothing for their country and military spouses who sacrifice quite a lot. That’s for people I know - heading down the road it is impossible to judge who might be that emptyheaded dittohead and who might be that military spouse. I generally don’t think about it at all and instead think of what I am doing myself. And a quick note to Barack Obama - I didn’t need to wait for the government to ask me to do anything before I got it done. Some of my actions were through my job, which has a rather direct impact on this. Some of it was through my volunteer activity and charitable giving, which tends to favor military and veterans-centered charities. Overall it was a modest contribution given my family and other commitments, but it was genuine. As a (former) libertarian yourself, **Liberal** , I’m sure this concept is familiar to you. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/26 "2008-06-30T23:22:03Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] And a quick note to Barack Obama - I didn’t need to wait for the government to ask me to do anything before I got it done. [/quote] Actually, that’s what Obama himself said. But thanks for your contributions. Once you’ve read or heard the speech in question, please return and share your informed observations with us. > [@](#): > > As a (former) libertarian yourself, **Liberal** , I’m sure this concept is familiar to you. As a libertarian, the concept familiar to me is the concept of peaceful honest people pursuing their own happiness in their own way — a concept that Obama cited in his speech: “That is the liberty we defend – the liberty of each of us to pursue our own dreams.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/27 "2008-06-30T23:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Actually, that’s what Obama himself said. But thanks for your contributions. Once you’ve read or heard the speech in question, please return and share your informed observations with us. [/QUOTE] I have read it. I thought it was nice in general. I took some issue with the part about Americans not being asked to sacrifice - part of being American is not waiting to be asked. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/28 "2008-06-30T23:35:02Z")
What amazes me the most about Obama is that he has such a deep understanding of our country’s history. He not only understands how this country got to this point, but why, and can place it all in historical context. Imagine Bush, or even McCain, giving a speech that includes Lexington and Concord, the Alien and Sedition Act, the hippie counterculture, Mark Twain and Martin Luther King, and have it make sense and be completely relevant to what’s going on in the world today. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/29 "2008-07-01T00:33:01Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] The problem for Republicans is that Obama is redefining patriotism as being a virture in the classical liberal sense (the second sense dealt with in the article cited by **Captain Amazing** ) — that is, an allegience to the ideals the flag ostensibly represents rather than to the mere rag itself. [/QUOTE] Pardon me, but what does patriotism have to do with classical liberalism, or any other political ideology? Loyalty to one’s country is **not** loyalty to a set of ideals – not unless the country in question is an ideological idea-state, which the Soviet Union was and the United States is not. We’re an ordinary nation-state like France, which has been through at least ten regime changes since 1789 and yet remains France. You’re loyal to your country like you’re loyal to your family – not because it’s the best in the world, but just because it’s yours. And, as with family loyalty, patriotism should be always unconditional and never unlimited. Reverence for ideals is not an **element** of patriotism but something that should sometimes **trump** patriotism. If your brother knocks over a bank, you say, “You disappointed us, but I’ll take out a second mortgage on my house to get you the best lawyer in town.” You **don’t** say, “You had a right to that money and those bank guards deserved to die.” ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/30 "2008-07-01T00:43:07Z")
I can imagine it. I can’t imagine them writing it. I believe Mr. Obama largely wrote this. I can also imagine their speechwriters writing it, and Mr. Bush asking what this crap is and tossing it back. Mr. McCain wouldn’t do that, though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/31 "2008-07-01T00:50:28Z")
Respectfully, disagree. My patriotism is strongly informed by ideology, the ideology of freedom and democracy, the bold experiment of revolution. Sure, the purple mountain stuff is cool, amber waves of grain, that’s all ok, I guess. But “brotherhood from sea to shining sea”…that’s the real deal. We were once the beacon of hope to the world, we will be again, amen. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/32 "2008-07-01T01:13:57Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Respectfully, disagree. My patriotism is strongly informed by ideology, the ideology of freedom and democracy, the bold experiment of revolution. Sure, the purple mountain stuff is cool, amber waves of grain, that’s all ok, I guess. But “brotherhood from sea to shining sea”…that’s the real deal. We were once the beacon of hope to the world, we will be again, amen. [/QUOTE] That’s understandable, even defensible, but be very, very careful with it – that kind of thinking can easily lead to [American exceptionalism,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) an idea which is **not** defensible and has done our country and the world even more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/33 "2008-07-01T04:12:25Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] It blows my mind that _anyone_ gives a shit about the pins and prayers and flags. We know that it doesn’t matter. [/QUOTE] I had meant to start a thread on this myself. What exactly does it matter if one guy is more patriotic than another? Yeah, he might be but does that make any bit of difference in whether he’d be a better manager or leader let alone a better president? I’m trying to remember if I’ve even heard the term used outside of the US or even if similar concepts are bandied about in other country’s elections. I seem to remember Paul Martin in Canada being derided because his shipping company had ships registered outside of Canada (highly likely to bypass Canadian regulations), but it was more of saying he was a hypocrite rather than questioning whether he was a ‘true’ Canadian. It never occurred to me to question his Canadianness. I assumed because he was a politician and was willing put up with the bullshit that politicians have to put up with he had some desire to serve the country (even if he was a liberal) even if it was just to pander to the voters. Maybe it is because my assumption is that all politicians want is power and being a member of parliament helps satisfy that for them. I guess some are doing it for altruistic reasons, but I’m not voting for them because of that. I’m voting for whoever promises to do the things I want them to do. I don’t care what their motivations are for doing them as long as they do. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/34 "2008-07-01T10:52:43Z")
Well, I guess it depends on how you define patriotism. So many people measure it by how big your flag pole is (heh-heh…new euphemism), how many ribbon magnets you have on your SUV, or whether you wear a Freedom is not Free t-shirt. That’s not my brand of patriotism. In fact, I see it as smoke and mirrors when it comes from a politician. Show me the actions, baby. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/35 "2008-07-01T11:54:16Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] The problem is that I’m uncomfortable taking people to task for the symbols they choose. [/QUOTE] Are you also uncomfortable with taking people to task for choosing no symbol at all? I have a perception of the right (in general) as people who believe that no one can be a patriot who does not wear a flag pin. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/36 "2008-07-01T12:47:40Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Are you also uncomfortable with taking people to task for choosing no symbol at all? I have a perception of the right (in general) as people who believe that no one can be a patriot who does not wear a flag pin. [/QUOTE] This is my problem. The in-laws just can’t wrap their brains around the fact that I don’t wear the ugly t-shirt or that I don’t shower my husband with military-oriented gifts at every opportunity. Why would I? They’ve already done it to death. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/37 "2008-07-01T13:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Will the market respond to this message about the next president’s bright outlook? The Dow went up three and a half points, the S&P by 1.62, and the NASDAQ down by 22. It doesn’t seem the market is all that enthusiastic. Part of Obama’s speech seems to be implying that the Declaration of Independence has the force of law coequal to the Constitution - > [@Obama](#): > > I remember, when living for four years in Indonesia as a child, listening to my mother reading me the first lines of the Declaration of Independence – “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” I remember her explaining how this declaration applied to every American, black and white and brown alike; how those words, and words of the United States Constitution, protected us from the injustices that we witnessed other people suffering during those years abroad. That’s my idea of America. So he seems to be a natural law proponent, especially natural law as established by the Creator. Didn’t he use to lecture on Constitutional law? So in a speech about patriotism, Obama is saying that rights are established by God and that this is a necessary part of his Americanism. Interesting. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/38 "2008-07-01T13:11:27Z")
> [@Which Candidate?](#): > > The patriot must not just accept, but in his or her own way protect the ideals that gave birth to our country: to stand against injustice and for the rights of all and not just one’s own interests. The patriot honors the duties, the loyalties, the inspirations and the habits of mind that bind us together as Americans. > > If you find faults with our country, make it a better one. If you are disappointed with the mistakes of government, join its ranks and work to correct them. I hope more Americans would consider enlisting in our armed forces. I hope more would consider running for public office or working in federal, state and local governments. But there are many public causes where your service can make our country a stronger, better one than we inherited. “Patriotism” is such a puff piece to speachify that getting a hard on for either candidate for his only has anything to do with the delivery. The content is going to be exactly the same. “Let’s analyse the text to reveal the greatness that is Obama.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/39 "2008-07-01T13:19:45Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] The Dow went up three and a half points, the S&P by 1.62, and the NASDAQ down by 22. It doesn’t seem the market is all that enthusiastic. Part of Obama’s speech seems to be implying that the Declaration of Independence has the force of law coequal to the Constitution -So he seems to be a natural law proponent, especially natural law as established by the Creator. Didn’t he use to lecture on Constitutional law? So in a speech about patriotism, Obama is saying that rights are established by God and that this is a necessary part of his Americanism. Interesting. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] He said “creator”; not god. I took it as a “human rights” thing; not necessarily a god thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/40 "2008-07-01T13:26:22Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Are you also uncomfortable with taking people to task for choosing no symbol at all? I have a perception of the right (in general) as people who believe that no one can be a patriot who does not wear a flag pin. [/QUOTE] Check out McCain’s lapel sometime and tell me what he wears in there. Generally it’s nothing at all. I think what caused people to ask questions about Obama and the pin was [this statement:](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8S2K3UO0&show_article=1) > [@](#): > > “The truth is that right after 9/11 I had a pin,” Obama said. "Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we’re talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security. > > “I decided I won’t wear that pin on my chest,” he said in the interview. “Instead, I’m going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testament to my patriotism.” Well and good, and his choice - but his interpretation of that symbol isn’t necessarily that of others. And by explaining things in this way he’s implying that a lapel pin is a substitute for true patriotism. Like I said before - you don’t know if the yellow ribbons are an empty symbol or not just by looking at them. The same goes for flag pins - as Obama himself seems to have discovered - he has worn them himself later in the campaign. A veteran in Pittsburgh handed him a pin that he wore for some time. And when he gave his patriotism speech - there was the flag pin, right in his lapel. Perhaps he should have done as McCain did - kept his mouth shut and his lapel clear. I don’t think attacks on McCain’s patriotism would get too far with voters, regardless of what is in his buttonhole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801.md?page=3)