# Barack Obama - America's passionate patriot **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801 "2008-06-30T19:17:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/61 "2008-07-02T01:45:27Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] What is singular is that America was first, and thus inspired the others as Obama suggests. The idea of a nation conceived in liberty grew out of 17th and 18th century philosophies, most notably John Locke’s natural law. Locke’s second treatise on government served, according to Jefferson, as the main inspiration for the Declaration of Independence. [/QUOTE] Locke was British, though. If we were a singular inspiration to the world, it was in our execution not our ideals. And that was 200 years ago. Greece could make the claim of singularly great ideals, and it would be at least as true, and just as irrelevant, as Obama’s claim. I’m not trying to be contentious, and I intend to vote for Obama, but this self-promoting word soup that passes for political wisdom these days is disappointing. To me at least. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/62 "2008-07-02T07:20:25Z")
[QUOTE=Dumbguy] Locke was British, though. If we were a singular inspiration to the world, it was in our execution not our ideals. And that was 200 years ago. Greece could make the claim of singularly great ideals, and it would be at least as true, and just as irrelevant, as Obama’s claim. I’m not trying to be contentious, and I intend to vote for Obama, but this self-promoting word soup that passes for political wisdom these days is disappointing. To me at least. [/QUOTE] I still believe you’re missing the point. He isn’t saying that some particular American or Americans inspired the world through their philosophy, which is what “Locke was British” would counter. He’s saying that before America, no nation had ever formed around the principles of freedom and equality for all. And he’s right. To counter what he’s saying, you need to show what nation was formed before America that was conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all people were created equal; that their rights were unalienable and came from God or nature, not government; and that if their government did not make them happy, they had the right to abolish and replace it with a government that did. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/63 "2008-07-02T17:57:37Z")
1. “Most Americans understood that dissent does not make one unpatriotic, and that there is nothing smart or sophisticated about a cynical disregard for America’s traditions and institutions. And yet the anger and turmoil of that period never entirely drained away. All too often our politics still seems trapped in these old, threadbare arguments – a fact most evident during our recent debates about the war in Iraq, when those who opposed administration policy were tagged by some as unpatriotic, and a general providing his best counsel on how to move forward in Iraq was accused of betrayal.” 2. More favorably 3. Doubtful 4. Good. 5. Some will, some won’t bother to consider anything other than what they’re told to believe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/64 "2008-07-02T17:58:59Z")
[QUOTE=Dumbguy] I’m not trying to be contentious, and I intend to vote for Obama, but this self-promoting word soup that passes for political wisdom these days is disappointing. To me at least. [/QUOTE] “These days”? You recall a time when it was different? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/65 "2008-07-02T18:09:20Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] “These days”? You recall a time when it was different? [/QUOTE] It was never presented as wisdom as it seems to be now. If it was presented as such, it wasn’t perceived that way by so many people. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/66 "2008-07-02T18:41:55Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I still believe you’re missing the point. He isn’t saying that some particular American or Americans inspired the world through their philosophy, which is what “Locke was British” would counter. He’s saying that before America, no nation had ever formed around the principles of freedom and equality for all. And he’s right. To counter what he’s saying, you need to show what nation was formed before America that was conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all people were created equal… [/QUOTE] While that may be true, it’s also not what Obama said. Obama referred to the United States as being singular in this regard, not “first.” “Singular” doesn’t mean you were first, or came up with it on your own, it means you’re the only one. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/67 "2008-07-02T20:08:15Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] While that may be true, it’s also not what Obama said. Obama referred to the United States as being singular in this regard, not “first.” “Singular” doesn’t mean you were first, or came up with it on your own, it means you’re the only one. [/QUOTE] Nit picked. Mission accomplished. What do we have for him Johny? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/68 "2008-07-02T20:09:55Z")
Not only are we unique, we are _very_ unique! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/69 "2008-07-02T20:39:51Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] While that may be true, it’s also not what Obama said. Obama referred to the United States as being singular in this regard, not “first.” “Singular” doesn’t mean you were first, or came up with it on your own, it means you’re the only one. [/QUOTE] The first is singular by virtue of being first — there can be only one first. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/70 "2008-07-02T20:40:55Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Nit picked. Mission accomplished. What do we have for him Johny? [/QUOTE] “Nitpicked” is one word. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/71 "2008-07-02T21:31:05Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] “Nitpicked” is one word. [/QUOTE] Not when referring to the picking of nits. . ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/72 "2008-07-02T21:41:34Z")
[QUOTE=andros] Not when referring to the picking of nits. [/QUOTE] Oh, okay. Like nut plucking. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/73 "2008-07-02T22:53:18Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] The first is singular by virtue of being first — there can be only one first. [/QUOTE] Look, even Saint Barack appears to be prone to the usual “USA! USA! USA!” chest-thumping. Nothing wrong in pointing that out. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/74 "2008-07-02T22:56:04Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Look, even Saint Barack appears to be prone to the usual “USA! USA! USA!” chest-thumping. Nothing wrong in pointing that out. [/QUOTE] Agreed, but admit it, he’s no Hacksaw Jim Dugan. Heeyyyooooo!! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/75 "2008-07-02T22:59:12Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Look, even Saint Barack appears to be prone to the usual “USA! USA! USA!” chest-thumping. Nothing wrong in pointing that out. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but I think he tries to see through to the actual substance behind those sentiments (and they _do_ have substance). It’s goes a little deeper than flag pins. Obama tries to champion the underlying legal and philosophical ideas which make America great (and yes, when it was founded, “singular”). it’s not just “America, fuck yeah!” ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801/76 "2008-07-03T01:37:58Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] “These days”? You recall a time when it was different? [/QUOTE] You’re right. I grew up in the tv era, and I’m used to presidential speeches sounding like shampoo commercials. I do think Reagan upped the ante on ‘comforting and meaningless’, and subsequent presidents have carried that torch, but maybe I’m just romanticizing the past. Maybe some of the great presidents only seem like titanic badasses because they aren’t subjected to digitally recorded, twenty-four hour scrutiny the way politicians are today. But I was at the Lincoln Memorial about a month ago, and reading Lincoln’s second inaugural address inscribed on one of the interior walls made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Try to imagine someone dropping this bomb today: _Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether._ Maybe it’s naïve to expect that our Presidents should always be great men. Or maybe it’s a copout to accept that they so often aren’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-americas-passionate-patriot/454801.md?page=3)