# Barack Obama has a change of heart... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795 "2004-07-25T13:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/21 "2004-07-26T11:57:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Misdirection? 😃 😃 😃 It was the original question I asked him. Oh, lordy, you leftists. I thought you were adademes. 😃 Ahahahaha. Misdirection from the somewhat floundering OP, dear boy. But oh so cleverly done. Why don’t you go and find a Democrat that does deserve pitting, and pit them, rather than laboriously transcribing every verbal tic in an effort to make someone with a perfectly reasonable answer sound more evasive? I’m sure such people exist, and I’m sure you in your infinite wisdom are more than capable of finding them. **Early Out** , “adademe” is a word used by someone without a “C” key who wants to smear someone else as being elitist while simultaneously being pretentious and patronising themselves. The typo spoils the effect, needless to say. ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/22 "2004-07-26T12:34:27Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > This was a standard december tactic, and it grew increasingly tiresome. You started this thread, pitting Obama. Others chimed in with their opinion that the pitting was unwarranted. Rather than defend your original proposition, you try to change the subject, and get all huffy when no one will take the bait. No shit. Deja vu. **Liberal** I don’t know a lot of people that are interested in your private political-philosophical struggles. I do know a lot of people that get stuck reading about them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/23 "2004-07-26T12:59:17Z")
Fucking cowards. Pulling out the December card when your pathetic mini-pile-on doesn’t produce the desired meltdown. Veering from the OP my ass. I’ve asked the questions four times. Was he embarrassed? And what was the message? Your answers were more evasive than even Obama’s. Just go ahead and say it. Say, “I’m up Kerry’s ass, and I think it smells great in here!” You’re a couple of weebles who support your team no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/24 "2004-07-26T13:01:08Z")
Kerry’s ass? _(looks around)_ I thought we were talking about Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/25 "2004-07-26T13:03:22Z")
It’s all the same to you blind weebles. Democrat good. Republican bad. You cannot even think of a Democrat you would pit. Oooo! Oooo! I can’t think of any answers. You, you, you December! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/26 "2004-07-26T13:04:36Z")
By the way, was he embarrassed? And what is the message it’s sending? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/27 "2004-07-26T13:05:07Z")
Ohh, **Liberal** lays down a bunt, but it dribbles foul! ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/28 "2004-07-26T13:08:03Z")
**Liberal:** > [@](#): > > I’ve asked the questions four times. Was he embarrassed? And what was the message? **Apos** (in the first post after the OP): > [@](#): > > He didn’t answer if he was offended, but he certainly said it was a problem. . . . He basically seemed to agree with his previous quotation without coming out and re-stating it, but then tried to further soften the blow by pointing to other factors that he thought made the Democratic party stand out from the Republican party. Not exactly forthright, but he certainly did address the question. **xeno** (second post after the OP): > [@](#): > > It was an evasive non-answer to an ambush. Russert asked a “gotcha” question implicitly applying a statement by Obama about a political reality within the context of 1996 (popular Dem incumbent Pres with little incentive to change policy platforms or do anything except generate funding for the party) to the vastly different context of the 2004 convention. **Otto** (third post after the OP): > [@](#): > > So he thinks big money is a problem for both parties, but that while the Democrats have problems with big money they and their presumptive nominee act more in accordance with the average person without pots of money. . . . What exactly is the problem with this answer, other than it, like most answers given by politicians on talk shows, doesn’t really answer the question as asked? **Lissa:** > [@](#): > > In sum, he said “look, it is a problem, everyone is doing it. However, I still think, no matter how much money is thrown around, the Democrats are still more in touch with the working class”. You’re either being pretty darn disingenuous or you’ve got a bad case of short-term memory loss. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/29 "2004-07-26T13:10:05Z")
By the way, **Lib** , I’d love to hear your response to the rest of **Otto’s** original post: > [@](#): > > What exactly is the problem with this answer, other than it, like most answers given by politicians on talk shows, doesn’t really answer the question as asked? What exactly are you pitting here? Political double-talk? Why single out Obama for that? The corrosive effects of big money on government? Has Obama fed excessively at that particular trough? That his feelings on the subject may have changed over the course of eight years? Would you prefer politicians whose opinions are calcified? ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/30 "2004-07-26T13:13:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So, um, what living Democrat do you feel deserves a pitting and for what? C’mon, Lib…that’s a gimme. Zell Miller ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/31 "2004-07-26T13:13:34Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You cannot even think of a Democrat you would pit. Oooo! Oooo! I can’t think of any answers. Like I said, he throws a hissy fit when no one will take the bait. Tears before bedtime. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/32 "2004-07-26T13:15:56Z")
Gadarene Those are all nonresponsive tautologies: they summarize the OP. Obama is evasive because he is a politician and all politicians are evasive. Well, blech. As to what I would have preferred him to say, I would have preferred something like this: _You know what? We really are exclusionist, just like we were 8 years ago. I meant it then, and I mean it now. People who make the big contributions get the access, and others are left out. That’s the way it is and, yes, I am embrassed. I think it sends a message that both parties have abandoned the general electorate._ Where’s Bulworth when you need him? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/33 "2004-07-26T13:21:38Z")
> [@Balle\_M](#): > > C’mon, Lib…that’s a gimme. > > Zell Miller “Fightin’ Joe” Lieberman. Though, admittedly, it would be a bit like Pitting cottage cheese… ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/34 "2004-07-26T13:28:30Z")
Democrat good. Republican bad. **Liberal** dishonest, fucking crazy, and posting nonsense purely to provoke a response. What’s new? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/35 "2004-07-26T13:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Those are all nonresponsive tautologies: they summarize the OP. Obama is evasive because he is a politician and all politicians are evasive. Well, blech. No, not really. Actually, not at all. Just because they have a take on Obama’s answer that doesn’t make him look bad doesn’t make them nonresponsive or tautological. Can you not see that “I wish we were better than we are, but we’re still better than the other guy” is a perfectly valid and _gasp_ somewhat nuanced construction? **Lib’s preferred answer:** > [@](#): > > You know what? We really are exclusionist, just like we were 8 years ago. I meant it then, and I mean it now. People who make the big contributions get the access, and others are left out. That’s the way it is and, yes, I am embrassed. I think it sends a message that both parties have abandoned the general electorate. And just because Obama isn’t saying what _you_ want him to say doesn’t make him a hypocrite _or_ mean that he’s had “a change of heart.” By the way, “offended” != “embarrassed” in any case. It’s the inattention to the details that makes me think you’re just playing around here. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/36 "2004-07-26T13:57:19Z")
Heal thyself, physician. Speaking of details, I didn’t say, as you suggest, that the answers were tautologies “Just because they have a take on Obama’s answer that doesn’t make him look bad”. I said they were tautologies because all they did was summarize the OP and generalize the principle that politicians evade. I don’t see anything in Obama’s response that remotely resembles “I wish we were better than we are”. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/37 "2004-07-26T14:50:40Z")
**Lib:** > [@](#): > > I don’t see anything in Obama’s response that remotely resembles “I wish we were better than we are”. Then you’re really not looking past the ums and uhs, are you? **Obama:** > [@](#): > > I think that politics and money are a problem in this country for both parties. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that. (1) One of the things I’m proud about though is that when you look at John Kerry’s record, what you know is here’s a person who is consistently voting on behalf of what he thinks is best for America and this country. I don’t think a convention changes that. (2) I do think that the more we as Democrats encourage participation from people who, at this point, feel locked out of the process, the stronger we are. (3) So, to paraphrase (please let me know if you have any quibbles, the source material is right above): (1) the influence of money in politics is a problem for both parties. (2) the convention notwithstanding [implying that he feels that there are legitimate criticisms to be made about the set-up of the convention], I’m proud of Kerry’s voting record [the phrase “for America and this country” is very awkward] (3) nevertheless, it would be in the interests of the Democratic party to do more to encourage participation from people who feel locked out of the process In what way does that not say, “I wish we were better than we are?” It is a statement of a problem, a statement of strengths despite the problem, and an aspiration to overcome the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/38 "2004-07-26T15:47:49Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Heal thyself, physician. Condescend to thyself, Liberal. > [@](#): > > Speaking of details, I didn’t say, as you suggest, that the answers were tautologies “Just because they have a take on Obama’s answer that doesn’t make him look bad”. I said they were tautologies because all they did was summarize the OP and generalize the principle that politicians evade. I don’t see anything in Obama’s response that remotely resembles “I wish we were better than we are”. Pretty much everyone described: a) what THEY felt Obama had said b) why your interpretation was therefore an uncharitable reading that made your thread title hyperbole Hardly “tautology.” You aren’t answering our actual objections, so unless that’s some deliberate joke you’re playing to parody Obama, I think this is getting pretty close to a trainwreck. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/39 "2004-07-26T16:18:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Fucking cowards. Pulling out the December card when your pathetic mini-pile-on doesn’t produce the desired meltdown. The comparison is getting increasingly valid, especially since four people have given basically identical answers to your question - a question that was simple and an obvious case of baiting to begin with. ‘Classic’ liberal or not, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time picking on Democrats in this manner. > [@](#): > > You’re a couple of weebles who support your team no matter what. And you’re determined to nit-pick them to death, which is apparently your definition of being non-partisan. Good for you, man, fight the good fight. As much as I enjoyed his criticisms of the Iraq run-up, Robert Byrd has done some pit-worthy things, including voting with the Republicans on the anti-gay marriage amendment issue. (And he and others were pitted for it.) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795/40 "2004-07-26T19:42:57Z")
Gadarene > [@](#): > > (1) the influence of money in politics is a problem for both parties. But Russert did not ask him about both parties, or ANY party for that matter. Russert asked him whether he — a person, not a party — was embarrassed. He is, after all, the keynote speaker at a convention that, as Russert told him, was worse than the 1996 convention by his (Obama’s) own standards. > [@](#): > > (2) the convention notwithstanding [implying that he feels that there are legitimate criticisms to be made about the set-up of the convention], I’m proud of Kerry’s voting record [the phrase “for America and this country” is very awkward] There was no mention of Kerry or his voting record either in the Cleveland Plain Dealer article or Russert’s question. Now, you’ve been active in another thread, joining Early Out in a pile-on accusing me of changing the subject when I stated my agreement with Diogenes. But here, you have no compunction about a man who avoids a direct question altogether with irrelevant nonsense about John Kerry’s record and a cheerleading reference to America. What gives? > [@](#): > > (3) nevertheless, it would be in the interests of the Democratic party to do more to encourage participation from people who feel locked out of the process Well, of _course_ it would. But wasn’t the question whether he was embarrassed and what message it sends? Yes. Yes, it was. > [@Apos](#): > > Pretty much everyone described: > a) what THEY felt Obama had said > b) why your interpretation was therefore an uncharitable reading that made your thread title hyperbole What has become of you? You never used to hang your hat on such ridiculous fallacies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-obama-has-a-change-of-heart/256795.md?page=3)