# Barack the Magic Negro **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980 "2008-12-28T18:06:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/161 "2008-12-30T17:51:31Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > This is not exactly true. Our prime minister accepts credentials of and receives ambassadors as well. That function is not reserved for the head of state. > > [For example](http://www.pngembassy.org/yearinreview_3.html) Obviously, Commonwealth states are going to have a little devolution of head-of-state powers given that the Queen is not about to fly over every time a new ambassador needs receiving… I suppose it’s a little odd that the PM receives people instead of the Governor-General, though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/162 "2008-12-30T17:53:47Z")
It’s not at all odd. It’s simply a concrete example of how a head of government who is explicitly not the head of state is perfectly capable of performing this governmental function without any metaphysically negative consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/163 "2008-12-30T17:58:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s not at all odd. It’s simply a concrete example of how a head of government who is explicitly not the head of state is perfectly capable of performing this governmental function without any metaphysically negative consequences. “Metaphysically negative consequences”? You’re having an argument with yourself here, I think. Nobody is saying that having a head of state is a good idea; just that it’s how things are done. It bespeaks a certain sort of arrogance to suggest that America doesn’t have to because “we’re a democracy and everyone is equal”, simply because in international relations you have to have someone who speaks for your state. It’s not the same as domestic politics, where you can have a dozen (or millions of) different people who speak for, say, the Republican Party; at least not until we start approving treaties by referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/164 "2008-12-30T18:18:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It bespeaks a certain sort of arrogance to suggest that America doesn’t have to because “we’re a democracy and everyone is equal” Whence arrogance? We appoint a representative to represent us. That person, unlike in other countries, is not the “embodiment of the nation,” but merely an official functionary. Was it arrogance for us to adopt a system in which there was no sovereign who ruled by divine right? > [@](#): > > simply because in international relations you have to have someone who speaks for your state. As I said, there must be someone empowered to make decisions on behalf of the _government_, because governments interact with each other in international relations. You implied some sort of dire consequences if this role was taken on by someone who is not a head of state. I sarcastically labelled them as metaphysical. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/165 "2008-12-30T18:28:17Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Whence arrogance? We appoint a representative to represent us. That person, unlike in other countries, is not the “embodiment of the nation,” but merely an official functionary. Was it arrogance for us to adopt a system in which there was no sovereign who ruled by divine right? No; it’s arrogant to make everyone else conform to your system, though. > [@](#): > > As I said, there must be someone empowered to make decisions on behalf of the _government_, because governments interact with each other in international relations. You implied some sort of dire consequences if this role was taken on by someone who is not a head of state. I sarcastically labelled them as metaphysical. Where did I imply dire consequences? I merely asserted that That’s How Things Are Done. On the contrary, I would go so far as to say that government-to-government interaction is handled by heads of government, not heads of state; Hs of S are for ceremonial stuff. However, regardless of which hat he’s wearing, the President does represent us to foreign powers and is therefore worthy of our respect, in general.\* I think we’ve lost the original question in all this, which (I think) was whether or not we should bow and scrape to the President. Obviously, you don’t _have_ to; this is America, and you need not bow and/or scrape to anyone if you don’t feel like it. However, IMHO, you _should_, in the same way you should avoid giggling at funerals or inserting your dollar bill into the stripper’s ear and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/166 "2008-12-30T18:38:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No; it’s arrogant to make everyone else conform to your system, though. The United States (according to my thesis) has no head of state and no individual embodies and symbolizes the nation. We do, however, appoint an individual to interact with representatives of other governments. How is this “mak[ing] every else conform to [our] system?” > [@](#): > > Where did I imply dire consequences? You said that an individual _has_ to personify and embody the nation. The implication is that if somebody doesn’t then … what? I filled that in with “metaphysically negative consequences” and “dire consequences.” You tell me. What happens? > [@](#): > > I merely asserted that That’s How Things Are Done. This isn’t an argument. Things are done in all kinds of ways. There are countries with sovereigns. There are countries without. Everyone does things slightly differently. > [@](#): > > the President does represent us to foreign powers and is therefore worthy of our respect, in general.\* He or she is worthy of respect in the same way that any other member of society is, regardless of occupation. > [@](#): > > I think we’ve lost the original question in all this, which (I think) was whether or not we should bow and scrape to the President. > > Obviously, you don’t _have_ to; this is America, and you need not bow and/or scrape to anyone if you don’t feel like it. However, IMHO, you _should_ We _should_ bow and scrape to the president? Really? I’ve never actually seen that happening. I should think we should treat the president in the same way we might treat any other stranger upon meeting, with simple courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/167 "2008-12-30T18:44:56Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Are we talking about the same Obama!? No street cred? Looks \*sort of \*? black? Is that what the Rush Limbaughs are telling themselves? Is _anyone_ needing to tell themselves this to deal with a black family moving into the white house? I really thought this weirdnes was limited to this board. Well, apparently the right-wingers find it easier to swallow if they can attribute their loss to white guilt, anything except the fact that Obama is a better candidate with a better platform and greater popular support. But I don’t think that makes what I said any less true. At least from observing other liberal white people I know, they’re all patting themselves on the back for defeating centuries of institutional American racism by electing Obama. With all due respect to Obama’s own struggle, his story is not the same as people whose ancestry has been obliterated by the African diaspora and suffered through all the plagues that ensued. When I hear one of those people’s stories ending at the White House, then I’ll believe racism is behind us. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/168 "2008-12-30T18:46:58Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Are we talking about the same Obama!? No street cred? Looks \*sort of \*? black? Is that what the Rush Limbaughs are telling themselves? Is _anyone_ needing to tell themselves this to deal with a black family moving into the white house? I really thought this weirdnes was limited to this board. You have to remember that ol’ Pillhead Rushbo trotted out the ‘Halfrican American’ line a good two years ago. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/169 "2008-12-30T18:47:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The United States (according to my thesis) has no head of state and no individual embodies and symbolizes the nation. We do, however, appoint an individual to interact with representatives of other governments. How is this “mak[ing] every else conform to [our] system?” When he does that ceremonially, he does it as Head of State. It’s not arrogant that we have a President who fills the role of HoS and HoG; it’s simply arrogant to assert that we don’t have a Head of State. > [@](#): > > You said that an individual _has_ to personify and embody the nation. The implication is that if somebody doesn’t then … what? I filled that in with “metaphysically negative consequences” and “dire consequences.” You tell me. What happens? Foreign dignitaries (and populations) will appoint one for us. Generally, they choose the President. I suppose somebody out there is waiting for his audience with Michael Jordan or something… > [@](#): > > This isn’t an argument. Things are done in all kinds of ways. There are countries with sovereigns. There are countries without. Everyone does things slightly differently. Countries without sovereigns have Presidents, who are their heads of state. Some just have Prime Ministers, which is a bit of an odd title to give somebody if you don’t have a sovereign. Still, there’s always somebody wearing the HoS hat, even if they also wear an HoG hat. > [@](#): > > He or she is worthy of respect in the same way that any other member of society is, regardless of occupation. Er… would you be just as honored to be invited to a PTA dinner as a White House dinner? > [@](#): > > We _should_ bow and scrape to the president? Really? I’ve never actually seen that happening. Obviously, “bow and scrape” is a bit of hyperbole, but I would address the President as “Mr. President” even if it’s a goofy form of address (which it is). I wouldn’t address anyone else as “Mr. Your Title”, aside from a few other government officers. > [@](#): > > I should think we should treat the president in the same way we might treat any other stranger upon meeting, with simple courtesy. I certainly won’t argue about extending simple courtesy to strangers. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/170 "2008-12-30T19:14:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And, by the way…“impassioned do-gooders”? Why, yes, yes I am, thank you for noticing. That you deliver it as an epithet and a sneer reveals volumes about your, ah, values. Such as they are. As “impassioned do-gooders” are generally motivated by vanity and care little about the practical consequences of their do-gooding, it is entirely appropriate to use the term as an epithet. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/171 "2008-12-30T19:38:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > When he does that ceremonially, he does it as Head of State. This is conclusory. > [@](#): > > it’s simply arrogant to assert that we don’t have a Head of State. How is it arrogance, exactly? And how is it more or less arrogant than asserting that we don’t have a hereditary sovereign who rules by divine right? > [@](#): > > Foreign dignitaries (and populations) will appoint one for us. Will they also appoint a king? Or a pope? Or a chancellor of the exchequer? Or a lord high executioner? And how do they go about doing so? When they make such an appointment, how does it affect us? “Dear Diary, today I chose the president of the United States to be the embodiment of the American people as a nation. Your faithful correspondent, Daisy Meeks, Hounslow, Mdsx.” > [@](#): > > Generally, they choose the President. I suppose somebody out there is waiting for his audience with Michael Jordan or something… So nobody looks forward to meeting the prime minister in a country that has a separate head of state? The head of (a branch of) government is a position of authority, not diminished by the fact that that head of government is not also a head of state (or that a head of state might not exist). > [@](#): > > Er… would you be just as honored to be invited to a PTA dinner as a White House dinner? How is that relevant? An invitation to the county bar association dinner carries less honor than an invitation to the American Bar Association dinner. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/172 "2008-12-30T19:43:25Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > As “impassioned do-gooders” are generally motivated by vanity and care little about the practical consequences of their do-gooding, it is entirely appropriate to use the term as an epithet. Gawrsh, Davey, what if their mission is to make sure everyone has their very own firearm? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/173 "2008-12-30T21:30:12Z")
Four “Ruffles and Flourishes” and “Hail to the Chief” are played for the American Head of State. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/174 "2008-12-30T22:37:18Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > At least from observing other liberal white people I know, they’re all patting themselves on the back for defeating centuries of institutional American racism by electing Obama. Nobody I know is saying that Obama’s election defeated racism. It is an important milestone that shows racism’s decline, but there are still one fuck of a lot of people who think anybody without white skin isn’t quite as good. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/175 "2008-12-30T23:09:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > [Quote=Cosmic Relief] > At least from observing other liberal white people I know, they’re all patting themselves on the back for defeating centuries of institutional American racism by electing Obama. Nobody I know is saying that Obama’s election defeated racism. It is an important milestone that shows racism’s decline, but there are still one fuck of a lot of people who think anybody without white skin isn’t quite as good. [/QUOTE] In fact, the only whites I know claiming that the election proves racism has been conquered have been people who have been pretending that racism has already been a non-issue for years. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/176 "2008-12-30T23:30:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In fact, the only whites I know claiming that the election proves racism has been conquered have been people who have been pretending that racism has already been a non-issue for years. Who, by and large, aren’t liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/177 "2008-12-31T03:27:02Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > And yet they represent a blithering fucknut like **Starving Artist** just fine, which is really all we need to know. Bzzzt! Wrong! > [@Starving Artist](#): > > \*I should probably add that I couldn’t believe how stupid Saltsman is to have done that. It’s easy to see why Huckabee didn’t do better than he did. > > Believe it or not, I almost started a Pit thread about this last night myself. That idiot is playing right into the hands of everyone who likes to stereotype Republicans as racists, and it pisses me off more than a little.\* [Link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10623587&postcount=32) (From this very thread, btw.) Oh, yeah…and you left out the part about how my brain doesn’t work right. 😃 (Can you say, “Hoist on my own petard?” Yeah, I thought that you could.) Schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/178 "2008-12-31T14:03:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In fact, the only whites I know claiming that the election proves racism has been conquered have been people who have been pretending that racism has already been a non-issue for years. Well, yeah, I guess the people I’m really talking about are white liberals who are throwing their arms out of joint patting themselves on the back for making such a “bold step forward” or being “so proud of America”, etc. Don’t get me wrong… I feel the same, or at least similar. For me it’s more of a feeling of a relief that America did not screw up the easiest possible chance to confront its racist history. We still have miles to go before we sleep, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/179 "2008-12-31T16:06:05Z")
So, how do you discern the distinction between being justifiably pleased at progress and “throwing their arms out of joint patting themselves on the back…”? What’s the tip-off? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980/180 "2008-12-31T16:16:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, how do you discern the distinction between being justifiably pleased at progress and “throwing their arms out of joint patting themselves on the back…”? What’s the tip-off? Why, the beret, of course. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barack-the-magic-negro/478980.md?page=10)