# Barefoot in the kichen my Ass! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 6, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129 "2007-02-06T20:55:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/21 "2007-02-10T14:04:59Z")
[QUOTE=FatBaldGuy] [nitpick]The rival wasn’t an astronaut, but the man they were both pursuing was.[/nitpick] [/QUOTE] No, all three are astronauts I do believe. You can get into NASA via the Navy or the Air Force, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/22 "2007-02-10T14:41:26Z")
Back when I was dating (many moons ago), I was talking to my ex about this same type of thing. She’d talk about how the wedding would be perfect and a bunch of stuff like that. She did say she’d want some of her groom’s (read: my) input on things, but for the most part, it was her day. I said “Fuck that. I’m not just incidental. If there’s a wedding that I’m personally involved in, I fucking get say over some things, and that’s just how it is. That’s great that you’ve had it in your head since you were little and all that stuff, but if I’m going to be involved, I will be heard.” Oddly enough, she seemed kinda receptive to it, but, on the other hand, I told her that I did understand that it was something that a lot of little girls dream about and that in the spirit of the thing, I’d have liked to adhere to most of the things she was dreaming about the entire time. Dammit, I’m not an ornament! _pouts and stomps off_ ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/23 "2007-02-10T14:51:40Z")
Also, I don’t see it as necessariily juvenile to look forward to your wedding, but it is…for the lack of a better term…unfair to place THAT much pressure on it. It’s just not realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/24 "2007-02-10T15:36:31Z")
[QUOTE=XJETGIRLX] And that’s just the problem. You aren’t a fairy princess, and a wedding is nothing to play at. I tend to think your fiancee has a more realistic view of the situation. It’s downright creepy to me that girls are encouraged to want to ‘play’ at this type of situation or that women who aren’t even in serious relationships spend time dreaming about and planning a wedding without a partner. It’s not a pageant, and should not be treated as such. It’s a ceremony that marks an incredibly serious commitment, not a chance to show off how pretty you are or how great a party you can throw. If that is really how you see a wedding, chances are you aren’t really ready to be married. [/QUOTE] I guess you missed this post where I said that [QUOTE=Ludy] I should clarify that I was not one of those girls wanting to get married. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Ludy] I want to get married now that I am engaged but I don’t want a big hurrah of a wedding [/QUOTE] The problem is that he doesn’t want any sort of wedding but just going to the courthouse one day. I want our families to meet. I never once thought of my own wedding until he put the ring on my finger. I don’t think that it is an immature idea to start planning a wedding once you are engaged. I personally don’t care where when or how we get married, I just want to get married and have our families there. The point of my OP was not to put me in the shoes of the little girls who dream of their weddings it was to show my frustration with his complete lack of understanding that wanting to be married is a valid choice in life. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/25 "2007-02-10T15:50:14Z")
[QUOTE=Ludy] I guess you missed this post where I said that The problem is that he doesn’t want any sort of wedding but just going to the courthouse one day. I want our families to meet. I never once thought of my own wedding until he put the ring on my finger. I don’t think that it is an immature idea to start planning a wedding once you are engaged. I personally don’t care where when or how we get married, I just want to get married and have our families there. The point of my OP was not to put me in the shoes of the little girls who dream of their weddings it was to show my frustration with his complete lack of understanding that wanting to be married is a valid choice in life. [/QUOTE] No, I didn’t miss that. You still seem to be equating dreaming about being a fairy princess for a day with wanting to get married. I can assure you plenty of us want to get married without buying into the whole need to feel like a pretty, pretty princess. And I agree that it is pathetic for little girls to fantasize about their wedding day, especially to the extent that our western society seems to encourage. I don’t see anything in your OP that indicates your fiance has an issue with marriage itself, just the anticipation of a stereotypical fairytale wedding. If you really don’t care what kind of wedding you have, then why did you get upset at what your fiance said? It doesn’t seem to have any bearing on your situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/26 "2007-02-10T16:23:11Z")
I got upset at what he said because he claimed that a child looking forward to getting married is not a valid dream to have. I am of the opinion that wanting to be a wife and mother is just as legitimate as any other occupation. I see no problem with wanting to be one as a child. Admittedly marriage is a bit of a hot button topic for me. I think that nothing really changes the day before a wedding and the day after, except the ceremony. You don’t suddenly start to love the other person more because you signed a piece of paper. The only difference is the wedding. So why get married without one? My fiancé refuses to even consider that a wedding could be significant to a person. Even a small ceremony and reception would mean the world to me and I have told him this. I have told him that I don’t want much. Hell anything would be nice. I have told him point blank that a wedding is extremely important to me, and it hurts when he completely disregards and insults something that he knows is important to me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/27 "2007-02-10T16:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=XJETGIRLX] No, I didn’t miss that. You still seem to be equating dreaming about being a fairy princess for a day with wanting to get married. I can assure you plenty of us want to get married without buying into the whole need to feel like a pretty, pretty princess. And I agree that it is pathetic for little girls to fantasize about their wedding day, especially to the extent that our western society seems to encourage. I don’t see anything in your OP that indicates your fiance has an issue with marriage itself, just the anticipation of a stereotypical fairytale wedding. If you really don’t care what kind of wedding you have, then why did you get upset at what your fiance said? It doesn’t seem to have any bearing on your situation. [/QUOTE] This is a problem for a lot of young women, I think. They can’t tell the difference between a wedding and a marriage. They can’t see past the ceremony. The groom is almost an accessory. From what I’ve observed, there’s almost an inverse correlation between the size of the wedding and the length of the marriage afterwards. The bridezillas who spend a year and a half obsessively planning every detail end up divorced or separated within two years. The couples who go to a courthouse in the middle of the night stay together forever. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/28 "2007-02-10T16:31:54Z")
> [@Ludy](#): > > I think that nothing really changes the day before a wedding and the day after, except the ceremony. If you think nothing will change once the ceremony is over, you are quite incredibly mistaken. Your life and relationship will change in more ways than you can imagine, and more ways than you have control over. > [@Ludy](#): > > My fiancé refuses to even consider that a wedding could be significant to a person. The ceremony should not be the focus of your dreams and hopes. Dreaming about _being_ married is a perfectly valid goal. Dreaming only about _getting_ married, and ignoring the rest of the equation is stupid. A ceremony can be an important part of that, but it’s not even close to being the most important part. If you’re craving the attention of a wedding, go throw a big anniversary party or girl’s night out. Don’t expect to fulfill your need for a big fancy to-do by getting married, because you will be incredibly disappointed afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/29 "2007-02-10T16:32:09Z")
[QUOTE=Ludy] I got upset at what he said because he claimed that a child looking forward to getting married is not a valid dream to have. [/quote] It sounds like he’s saying that the _ceremony_ is a shallow thing to get hung up about, and I agree with him. The decision to get married is significant. The wedding itself is not. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/30 "2007-02-10T16:41:32Z")
Why can’t the OP have a party to celebrate the day she and her fiance marry? She said she doesn’t want a “big fancy to-do” as others seem to be chiding her for wanting. She just wants the two families _ **who have yet to meet** _, to do so and celebrate their joy. That isn’t wrong. I think he’s seeing it too rigidly and needs to learn to give a little myself. Maybe you could talk him into holding a party to celebrate the fact after the honeymoon, if nothing else? Would that work? Elope, then party? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/31 "2007-02-10T17:05:41Z")
I guess I just don’t understand the vitriol being directed at the OP. If I understand her, all she’s saying is that while a marriage ceremony doesn’t change the nature of the relationship, the _decision_ to get married is significant, and as such, the marriage should be marked somehow. As, for example, by a big wedding where you gather together lots of people you love, and who love you, and you stand up in front of them and get married. In law school, we learned about something called enfeoffment with livery of seisin. I’m sure I’ve misspelled that. enfeoffment = being given the feof, or the land; livery = fancy ceremonial stuff; seisin = holding the land. So when the guy who owned all the land was going to give a bit of it away to one of his loyal guys, he’d go out there on the land with him, pick up a clump of dirt, and symbolically entrust him with the land. This whole ceremony to do something that could have just been handled in a law office, signing some papers. We’re social people. Nothing wrong with the OP wanting to mark a momentous occasion with a ceremony that suits her notion of how important the occasion is. And just because some people aren’t interested in doing the same thing (me, for instance; I’d rather gnaw off my left arm than get married) is no reason to deny her the opportunity. I don’t blame the fiance for being honest about what he wants, either. That’s the problem when you’re in a relationship, though; nobody ever gets it all their own way. Good luck on this one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/32 "2007-02-10T17:28:24Z")
Wait…wha? ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/33 "2007-02-10T17:40:41Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It sounds like he’s saying that the _ceremony_ is a shallow thing to get hung up about, and I agree with him. The decision to get married is significant. The wedding itself is not. [/QUOTE] I agree that in general, people put waaaaay too much money and effort into their weddings. That said, I don’t think it’s fair to say that a wedding ceremony “isn’t significant”. The symbolism and ritual of a wedding ceremony can be very powerful and moving for a couple, especially if they are religious. Personally, I don’t want my wedding to be lavish, expensive, or vanilla. But I do want it to be a day dedicated to my family, my partner, all the love we share between us, and nothing else, nothing mundane or trifling. I don’t think I am wrong or deluded to think it should be special and different from every other day of my life. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/34 "2007-02-10T18:10:47Z")
On further thought, don’t some people have a legal wedding, _and_ a church wedding on different days? Why can’t you go to a JOP, then later have a gathering of the two families with an officiant to conduct a church ceremony? Maybe that would be pushing him too much though? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/35 "2007-02-10T19:15:55Z")
The really troubling part for me is that I can’t shake the idea that women are getting married, _right this second_, somewhere, to jackasses who treat them awfully just to fulfill the wedding-day fantasy. There’s a dude involved, too, and forgetting that can be dangerous–it has to be the right dude, and anyway the right dude has dreams too. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > I don’t believe seven-year-olds dream of the day when they get to be Queen Bitch with no (immediate) consequences. (Do they?) That’s what being seven is _all about_. For boys and girls. For brides, it’s just a trip back to a happier time. > [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > You can get into NASA via the Navy or the Air Force, correct? You can get into space via the Navy or Air Force, and you might subsequently work with NASA and/or other national governments’ space programs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/36 "2007-02-10T19:44:49Z")
[QUOTE=kung fu lola] But I do want it to be a day dedicated to my family, my partner, all the love we share between us, and nothing else, nothing mundane or trifling. [/QUOTE] This is exactly the kind of language that makes men cringe. I can’t think of anything that would be more excruciating than having to publicly celebrate “our love.” That’s something to be talked about only by the couple and only in shame and secrecy. To me, a wedding ceremony is just a glorified version of watching two people make out in public in front of everybody. It’s a kind of exhibitionism that I’ve never enjoyed or understood. I tried to go the courthouse, Justice of the peace route with my own wife but I lost that battle, sadly. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/37 "2007-02-10T20:18:02Z")
[QUOTE=Unintentionally Blank] In marriage, you show up, give her a ring, and your work is done for a year. Then you spend a LOT of money to feed other people (many of whom you’ll never see again), on a day you won’t remember. In childbirth, the guy shows up, gives her, uh, ‘a ring’, and his work is done for 9-10 months, at which point you show up, drive her to the hospital and spend a LOT of money to other people (many of whom you’ll never see again), on a day you won’t remember. Where you go from there determines if, as a guy, you regret the experience(s) or not. [/QUOTE] I wonder if you speak from experience? 'Cause as a guy, I vividly recall my wedding day (including my last moment alone in the dressing room, looking at myself in the mirror and jauntily saying to myself, “This is it… If you’re gonna bolt, this is your LAST CHANCE, buddy”), and the following reception. Of course, even the staff at the restaurant we had the banquet at even nearly nine years later still talks about our reception (we still go there all the time), what with my uncle getting drunk and challenging everyone to one-armed pushups, and my best man’s fiancee, who’s about 50 lbs. and in a wheelchair, chugging what looked to be half a bottle of Johnny Walker Black (but was actually tea carefully brewed to the same color as the scotch). And childbirth? Being at the births of my children are among the happiest memories I have, especially the first one. I remember the exact time and place… How gray colored my daughter seemed coming out, pinking up after her first few cries, how I got to hold her after they swaddled her and she felt like the most fragile and precious thing in the world to me. I glanced at the clock at that moment and it read 11:04, with the second hand sweeping just over the “4” on the clock face. I remember this far better than, say, my high school or college graduation (which I only dimly recall). Only the memory of being at Shea Stadium for the Mets’ ten-run eighth inning comeback from an 8-1 deficit on Fireworks Night against the Atlanta Braves on June 30th, 2000 rivals it in clarity 🙂 If you are serious, and your wedding day and the birth of your children, both supremely life-changing events, didn’t register deeply in your memory bank, I wonder what has? Or are you saying these are things you personally regret, and have blanked your memories of? As for the subject of the OP, yes, I always did find it, well, not “pathetic”, maybe “shallow” would be a better word, for girls to focus so much on “That Special Day” from early childhood. As a parent I do find myself wondering what it will be like when my children get married, so I guess one can think of the whole wedding obsession phenomenon as one of those “milestone life events” that one imagines from time to time, including one’s own death (_I wonder what I’ll say or do on my deathbed? Or will I die in my sleep, or in some kind of sudden accident? I do ride a motorcycle, after all…_). On the other hand, I find it off-putting to imagine an event that by definition involves oneself and another person, without there being a person filling that imaginary “other” role. So I guess fantasizing about “marrying \”, where \ is a person you have a crush on or a celebrity or something, is pretty normal, but fantasizing about simply “being a bride” is buying into the entire “princess for a day” thing, which seems shallow and self-centered. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/38 "2007-02-10T20:20:33Z")
[QUOTE=kung fu lola] The symbolism and ritual of a wedding ceremony can be very powerful and moving for a couple, especially if they are religious. [/QUOTE] Yes, but what is the symbolism of a $20,000 reception, or ugly bridesmaid dresses, or the psychological requirement that every single detail be beautiful, perfect (and so much better than that cousin’s wedding), _on pain of torture_? My point is, when I hear of young girls fantasizing about their wedding day, and especially when they continue to fantasize about it through adulthood, I picture Kelly from _The Office_. Desperate and lacking in any self-definition beyond the fact that someone will someday make them the fairy princess/queen for a day. And as others have said, at best this shows contempt for the eventual groom, since he’s just another element to be planned around, like the photographer or the flowers. At worst it means a girl winds up marrying someone just to get married, regardless of his unsuitability as a mate. Another problem I have with a girl having “getting married” or worse, “her wedding day” as her ultimate goal is that frankly, even if you fall in love and have a perfect fairytale wedding, men sometimes leave, or die, or get disabled. I think any woman contemplating having a family has an ethical obligation to her future children to have some skills she could use to support them if necessary. There’s also the fact that not everyone can have children, and if you do they eventually leave, and then what? If you have no identity whatsoever apart from your family, you’re in for some trouble. (In case anyone is wondering, I always figured I’d get married, never really fantasized about my wedding day, got a law degree, married a great guy in a semi-traditional ceremony that was more for my family’s sake than mine, practiced law, quit, had a baby, and am proud of being a good SAHM.) ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/39 "2007-02-10T20:40:43Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is exactly the kind of language that makes men cringe. [/QUOTE] Good thing I’m mostly gay, then. **ETA** : I didn’t just mean the love between me and my SO, either. I meant the love of family and friends, people who have supported me and helped me to become a responsible independent adult (it wasn’t an easy ride for me). The ties of friendship and familial love are essential to me; I couldn’t have any happiness without them. I want my wedding day to be a celebration of the community I have made for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Kayeby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de0a6/32.png) [@Kayeby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kayeby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/40 "2007-02-11T00:10:40Z")
[QUOTE=Ludy] My fiancé refuses to even consider that a wedding could be significant to a person. Even a small ceremony and reception would mean the world to me and I have told him this. I have told him that I don’t want much. Hell anything would be nice. I have told him point blank that a wedding is extremely important to me, and it hurts when he completely disregards and insults something that he knows is important to me. [/QUOTE] Okay he could be a bit more flexible since a small ceremony is less of an extravaganza and more of a party with friends. Is it the cost he’s worried about? The possibility that it will snowball into something bigger? Or is it purely the principle? Would he settle for your close friends and family witnessing the vows at a courthouse and going out to your favourite restaurant for the reception? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129.md?page=3)