# Barefoot in the kichen my Ass! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 6, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129 "2007-02-06T20:55:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/41 "2007-02-11T02:04:48Z")
[QUOTE=Kayeby] Okay he could be a bit more flexible since a small ceremony is less of an extravaganza and more of a party with friends. Is it the cost he’s worried about? The possibility that it will snowball into something bigger? Or is it purely the principle? Would he settle for your close friends and family witnessing the vows at a courthouse and going out to your favourite restaurant for the reception? [/QUOTE] That is exactly what I have proposed for us to do. We even have family friends that own a fantastic Greek restaurant who have offered to have it there. He agrees that it is a good idea but when I ask when would be a good date for it he always comes back with some random day 10 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/42 "2007-02-11T02:09:27Z")
[QUOTE=XJETGIRLX] If you think nothing will change once the ceremony is over, you are quite incredibly mistaken. Your life and relationship will change in more ways than you can imagine, and more ways than you have control over. [/QUOTE] I do think there will be some changes but we have lived together for close to three years now, and have lived in three different provinces spanning coast to coast. We have been essentially a married couple for a while now. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/43 "2007-02-11T04:54:42Z")
[QUOTE=Ludy] I do think there will be some changes but we have lived together for close to three years now, and have lived in three different provinces spanning coast to coast. We have been essentially a married couple for a while now. [/QUOTE] Then why get married? Why so much emphasis on a ceremony? The point of a ceremony should be to mark a change - a beginning, an end, a new journey. If you feel that nothing will change, then why have a ceremony? I’m not saying you shouldn’t have one, but pointing out that you seem to be sending mixed signals. Speaking from experience, I promise you that no matter what ideas you have about what it’s like to be married, and no matter how long you’ve been together and what experiences you’ve been through, being married **will** be different. If you think that is not the case, you are probably not ready for marriage. It’s not just your lives together, or your relationship. It’s your relationship to the world and people around you, and to society. It’s the way people will look at you, and the expectations they will place on you. It’s the way you will be treated, and the way you will come to treat each other. Suddenly things about your relationship really are painted in a whole new light, and sometimes you don’t come to the same conclusions that you did before. You will change in more ways than you have control over. Being married (not getting married) means accepting and embracing that. A ceremony to mark your commitment is nice, but it’s not the part that really matters. Given what you related in your OP, I don’t understand why you’re upset with his comments. You go out of your way to say that you’re not one of those girls who fantasizes about having a fairy tale wedding, but you get upset at him for criticizing girls who do. It doesn’t sound like he has a problem with having a wedding per se, just one that is a major orchestration with a bridezilla as the focus. If you really don’t mind a low-key event and he has particular ideas about what he wants (or doesn’t want), then why not put him in charge of making the arrangements? Either way, it sounds like you guys need to really talk in-depth about what your expecations are and what marriage really means to you both, beyond just living together. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/44 "2007-02-11T05:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > have to admit something about young girls dreaming about their wedding day just oogs me out (which is stupid given that when I was a young girl I fantasised about being a rainbow-coloured horse). I feel that it feeds in to the belief that My wedding is the MOST IMPORTANT day of my life and everything had better be perfect, and everyone had better do exactly what I want, and Groom had better stop complaining about the cost and just stand there and smile because it’s my special daaaaaay! Ugh. And so many women take that attitude right to the alter, too. Every second I spent in David’s Bridal during wedding planning was _excruciating._ “MOOMMMM YOU STILL HAVE TO PLAN A BRIDAL SHOWER FOR ME???” “My engagement ring was custom-made by a Russian jeweler. It cost X dollars which is nothing compared to the wedding band…” “It’s my day you have to wear whatever I want you to wear OMG!!!” I feel so bad for people who work there. I wouldn’t take that job if they paid me six figures to do it. Practically every single person who walks in there acts like they own the place. For anyone who finds these topics interesting, I read an amazing and insightful book on the topic of women and marriage. It’s called [The Meaning of Wife](http://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Wife-Anne-Kingston/dp/0374205108) . I read it during my engagement. There’s an entire chapter on the Bridal Industry and the way society perpetuates this image of the Perfect Bride and encourages women to act like spoiled children on their Perfect Day, only to discard her the next day. It’s fascinating stuff, and really even-handed, presenting all these difficult identity issues women face but highly critical of anyone (including feminists) who insist there’s some way women “should” do the wife thing. The overarching message of the book is that all women are different and therefore what works for one isn’t going to work for the other, and to imply otherwise, no matter how well meaning one might be, is bullshit. > [@](#): > > I do think there will be some changes but we have lived together for close to three years now, and have lived in three different provinces spanning coast to coast. We have been essentially a married couple for a while now. Well, there are actually changes. I lived with my husband for four years before we married; we believed we had crossed every bridge there was to cross–shared finances, life emergencies, chronic illness, even a major relationship crisis (nothing tests a marriage like planning a wedding!) Marriage is something else entirely… things have changed already after only 7 months. I can’t really define it, but it has to do with the sense of responsibility. You suddenly see the way in which one little thing–a harsh word or an eye-roll, even-- can affect things 10 or 20 years down the road. There is a sense of permanence to the arrangement (and I say this as someone who believes that all things are impermanent)… there is a sense of duty. I don’t really know how to put it in a way to be effectively convincing. Essentially I am constantly struck with the fragility of the arrangement, and through that recognition have developed a profound reverence for everything that is between my husband and I. Nothing in life is ever for certain, and everything always changes, and that is the grand glory of it… and when you realize you’ve been tasked with making a relationship survive not just four years but with the rest of your natural lives wherever they may lead you and whatever changes might come… it just changes things. He acknowledges it too, things are different. People who know us might not be able to tell that things have changed, but we know. They have. And you must know that, subconsciously, else you wouldn’t bother getting married. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/45 "2007-02-11T06:42:47Z")
[Quote=Ludy] That is exactly what I have proposed for us to do. We even have family friends that own a fantastic Greek restaurant who have offered to have it there. He agrees that it is a good idea but when I ask when would be a good date for it he always comes back with some random day 10 years from now. [/quote] > [@Ludy](#): > > I do think there will be some changes but we have lived together for close to three years now, and have lived in three different provinces spanning coast to coast. We have been essentially a married couple for a while now. I presume that at this point you have heard the crude reference to buying cows when free milk is being given away and the not quite as crude but equally stereotypical claims that (certain) men are allergic to commitment. I have no idea what your relationship is really like and would not presume to claim that I “understand” what is going on. However, If you are truly interested in making a formal commitment for life and, after three years and multiple moves, he is still dancing around the topic, you might want to sit down and think about what each of you truly wants in this relationship and what each of you wants in five years, fifteen years, or forty years. If you view marriage as a truly permanent situation, then you and he need to be considering just how you will be together in twenty years or more. (And if you are not considering a permanent commitment, why bother with the ring and legal documents?) I have no suggestions beyond the one that you consider what you are seeking and why you seek it–then make sure that your SO is at least considering the same search. Particularly in terms of your second quoted comment, please read the post by **olivesmarch4th** at least twice, perhaps several hours apart. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/46 "2007-02-11T06:52:48Z")
[QUOTE=Ludy] That is exactly what I have proposed for us to do. We even have family friends that own a fantastic Greek restaurant who have offered to have it there. He agrees that it is a good idea but when I ask when would be a good date for it he always comes back with some random day 10 years from now. [/QUOTE] Your comprmise doesn’t sound unreasonable to me, and the fact that he still wants to delay on setting a date makes me think that he really might be hesitant about the committment itself rather than just the ceremony. I think you should take **Tom’s** advice about trying to evaluate what you both really want in terms of a relationship (setting aside the details of ceremony). You may want to consider an ultimatum. ---
**Author:** ![justpassingthrough](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@justpassingthrough](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justpassingthrough)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/47 "2007-02-11T07:36:57Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] \ You may want to consider an ultimatum. [/QUOTE] Ultimatums are hostile and unnecessary; it should be enough to decide what you want and discuss honestly enough with the SO to see if your goals are compatible. I’m worried about the SO’s apparent unwillingness to compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Penchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Penchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penchan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/48 "2007-02-11T07:44:42Z")
I find it quite scary that Dopers are passing such harsh judgment on another Doper. So what if the OP wants to have a lavish wedding (which she doesn’t), we can give our opinions but I think it’s taking it too far to point fingers and saying or highly suggesting that “you’re wrong”, “I think you’re pathetic”, “you’re not ready for this”. From what the OP said how can anyone say that she and her fiance aren’t ready to get married? Maybe they have some issues to talk about, but that doesn’t mean she’s a bridezilla who’s trying to trap her boyfriend to become that zombie-groom at the end of the aisle. We don’t pass judgment on the lifestyles of people with different sexual orientations or people who live luxuriously (if they earn it and appreciate what they have). Why can we pass judgment on someone who places sentiment and importance on a day that other Dopers have remarked as a pivotal point in their lives? Why is there so much anger directed toward the OP when she just wanted family there to witness and celebrate a little with the happy couple who decided to tie their lives together legally? I think it’s a marking point because now the couple are stuck together unless they go through the hassle of a divorce. They have to share everything in the eyes of the law, they have power over whether or not their spouse will be resuscitated if there’s an accident - I think that’s one hell of a big deal. I understand that people hate bridezillas and the whole wedding industry for perpetuating the stereotype that girls should fantasize about their weddings. But I don’t understand the animosity directed toward the OP for venting and asking for a bit of sympathy. For what it’s worth, **Ludy** , I understand where you’re coming from. I’m dealing with sort of the same situation. Except it’s my father who just wants to go to the courthouse and the rest of the family wants to celebrate a little. I think it’s perfectly fine to want to celebrate the start of a married couple’s life together. Do what makes you and your future husband happy, don’t worry about what some anonymous internet people say (myself included). Just talk it out with your fiance and make sure you have all the important points agreed upon and work out the rest as you go along. It’s a bumpy road but it’s pretty nice to share it with someone that you love and will be bound to in the eyes of _insert your denomination’s deity or the law, whatever works for you_. So congratulations and good luck! And be sure to enjoy the ride! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/49 "2007-02-11T07:46:32Z")
[QUOTE=justpassingthrough] Ultimatums are hostile and unnecessary. [/QUOTE] I disagree. Sometimes they ARE necessary. Sometimes one partner needs to make it clear what his/her desires are for the relationship and let it be known that if the other person doesn’t share the same vision, then it’s time to move on. ---
**Author:** ![justpassingthrough](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@justpassingthrough](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justpassingthrough)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/50 "2007-02-11T08:17:34Z")
We may be using two slightly different definitions of ‘ultimatum.’ From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): 1. a final, uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force. 2. a final proposal or statement of conditions. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/51 "2007-02-11T09:30:51Z")
Well, I think the Greek restaurant drunk fest with two families would be GREAT!!! That’s basically what Chinese weddings are except in a Chinese restaurant and you also invite a boat load of friends. China wife and I actually got officially married at a Tokyo ward office. As I left the office that morning “guys, I might be a little late this afternoon since I’m getting married at lunch. cover for me, willya?” 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129/52 "2007-02-11T16:36:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Another problem I have with a girl having “getting married” or worse, “her wedding day” as her ultimate goal is that frankly, even if you fall in love and have a perfect fairytale wedding, men sometimes leave, or die, or get disabled. I think any woman contemplating having a family has an ethical obligation to her future children to have some skills she could use to support them if necessary. I agree with this so hard-core I had to make a post just to say how much I agree with it. It’s the reason I’m getting my degree before we have babies. It’s a long time to wait (especially if I go for a Ph.D.), but I feel it’s my obligation to my family. It’s absolutely necessary that if anything were to happen I could run out and get a job in my field immediately. You never know what life has in store. > [@](#): > > I understand that people hate bridezillas and the whole wedding industry for perpetuating the stereotype that girls should fantasize about their weddings. But I don’t understand the animosity directed toward the OP for venting and asking for a bit of sympathy. I’m not really sure I see that here. I see a lot of people bitching about the Bridal Industry, but the OP has already pretty clearly stated she doesn’t buy int o it. While I question the notion that little girls taught to fantasize about their weddings is a healthy thing, and others here have too-- I haven’t really seen any vitriol directed at the OP. > [@](#): > > It’s not so much a “Fairy Princess” thing as much as two lists that are always in the back of our minds. These lists are titled “Good Idea” and “Hell No”. Every time we try on a formal dress, every time we are a bridesmaid or flower girl, hell every time we ATTEND a wedding, we add to the lists. If we decide to marry, then the lists are further refined. Big or small; BBQ or hors d’oeuvres; Vegas or church. Each woman is different. I think it’s just part of thinking about all the possibilities. > > We also have lists labeled “Careers”, “Cute Stuff”, “Baby Names”, “Sexy”, “Gross”, “Fears”, and “Shoes”. By “our” and “we”, do you mean “all women.”? Because I cannot relate to this at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barefoot-in-the-kichen-my-ass/391129.md?page=2)