# Bargaining for things, yea or nay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2010, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442 "2010-07-21T09:29:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/21 "2010-07-21T21:01:15Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Err… that’s not a contradiction to what I said, and I agree with you. 🙂 Ooooooh yeah… the “you” in your sentence referred to the salesman, not the OP. I get it now. In that case, you make a very compelling and erudite point, and I salute you on your intellectual acuity. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/22 "2010-07-21T21:47:51Z")
The purpose of the haggling system is so that you can rip the other person off. When the buyer instigates the haggle, it’s because they want to rip off the seller. When a seller instigates it, it’s because they want to rip off the buyer. (This also counts if the set the list prices high in the expectation that people will haggle them down.) Personally I consider haggling to be borderline immoral - it operates on the premise that one or both parties lie about what they are willing to accept as the terms of the transaction. That is, if the seller says the item costs $5, and allows themselves to be bid down to $4, then they didn’t _really_ require people to pay $5 for the item, now did they? The lying scumbags were just trying to shaft less argumentive people out of the extra dollar; essentially picking their pockets for the crime of not being willing to engage in the transaction directly. (Objectively speaking, if a seller offers a lower price and _sticks to it_, they’re not being dishonest - they’re just refusign to accept the stated terms of a deal. If they allow themselves to be bargained up at all though…) Which brings me to my other problem with bargaining: it actively promotes antisocial behavior. “But **begbert2**!”, you might exclaim, “Bargaining energetically back and forth is an active engagement with the other person; that’s doubtlessly more social than a sterile silent exchange of goods!” Yeah yeah - different definition of ‘social’. Being argumentive and refusing to accept any bargain without an argument is unpleasant behavior, which consumes time and likely takes the seller away from other customers while they’re dealing with your argumentive nature. Or in the reverse case you’re transparently trying to shaft the customer - leading to the stellar social image that used car salesmen have earned to date. And the thing about bargaining is that it actively reinforces this antisocial behavior - if tolerated, it pays! A person who successfully bargains sees direct benefit for their efforts. And thus the heinous practice persists. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/23 "2010-07-21T21:48:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > The last time I had someone try to bargain with me I did not play along. > > Item was $75. Customer said, “I’ll give you $55”. > I replied, “$80”. > > He got flustered, pointed out that he was expecting a number between his offer and the original asking price. I explained that the price went up to reflect the time I was wasting listening to his offer. He handed over a credit card and was charged the original asking price, but he wasn’t thrilled. That’s funny. I have NP with haggling per say but some people are a real pain in the ass. Others can actually be fun. I waorked in retail a long time and many people haggled over things. I had a lady want to haggle over a $3 plastic trash can. She got irritated when I wouldn’t. The last company I worked for got a rep for haggling because the managers often handed out discounts to stimulate business. The result was everybody thought they deserved one. I found creative ways to deal with them. One lady was looking at a $100 item that we had had too long so I offered it to her for $75. She then offered $65, so I offered $85 and got a puzzled look. When I said “Does $75 sound okay now?” she agreed it did. ONe lady told me flat out that she planned to hassle me until I gave her a better discount. I told her if the next words out of her weren’t I’ll take it, then the price was going up. She turned and walked away. Asking for a deal is fine. Be nice about it. Know when to quit hassling people and buy it or not. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/24 "2010-07-21T21:58:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > I wish people would QUIT BARGAINING. Just stop doing it. Our lives are short, why waste one’s time arguing with a stranger? If people would quit haggling, there would be fairer prices for goods and services. Prices would naturally fall a bit by themselves. > > So, what is the upside of bargaining? I prefer not to bargain myself but I don’t see any real problem with it. I’d feel I was doing myself a disservice if I thought I could save some money by a little polite bargaining and didn’t bother to even ask. Competition has forced a lot of companies to have such slim profit margins that there’s little room for bargaining, but if someone is spending hundred of dollars on an HDTV I’m not offended if they ask me to throw in an HDMI cable. What something is worth and value is very much affected by perception and changes quite often. It’s completely up to you to set the terms of how much bargaining you will and won’t do. No reason to be irritated. If you choose not to there are plenty of places to shop that don’t. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/25 "2010-07-21T22:03:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The purpose of the haggling system is so that you can rip the other person off. When the buyer instigates the haggle, it’s because they want to rip off the seller. When a seller instigates it, it’s because they want to rip off the buyer. (This also counts if the set the list prices high in the expectation that people will haggle them down.) > > Personally I consider haggling to be borderline immoral - it operates on the premise that one or both parties lie about what they are willing to accept as the terms of the transaction. That is, if the seller says the item costs $5, and allows themselves to be bid down to $4, then they didn’t _really_ require people to pay $5 for the item, now did they? The lying scumbags were just trying to shaft less argumentive people out of the extra dollar; essentially picking their pockets for the crime of not being willing to engage in the transaction directly. > > (Objectively speaking, if a seller offers a lower price and _sticks to it_, they’re not being dishonest - they’re just refusign to accept the stated terms of a deal. If they allow themselves to be bargained up at all though…) > > Which brings me to my other problem with bargaining: it actively promotes antisocial behavior. “But **begbert2**!”, you might exclaim, “Bargaining energetically back and forth is an active engagement with the other person; that’s doubtlessly more social than a sterile silent exchange of goods!” Yeah yeah - different definition of ‘social’. Being argumentive and refusing to accept any bargain without an argument is unpleasant behavior, which consumes time and likely takes the seller away from other customers while they’re dealing with your argumentive nature. Or in the reverse case you’re transparently trying to shaft the customer - leading to the stellar social image that used car salesmen have earned to date. And the thing about bargaining is that it actively reinforces this antisocial behavior - if tolerated, it pays! A person who successfully bargains sees direct benefit for their efforts. And thus the heinous practice persists. Wow that’s kinda drastic. There’s nothing borderline immoral about haggling. The individuals involved determine their own level of honesty and their attitude. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/26 "2010-07-21T22:08:27Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Wow that’s kinda drastic. There’s nothing borderline immoral about haggling. The individuals involved determine their own level of honesty and their attitude. Of course there’s something borderline immoral about haggling - it relies on the deliberate misreprentation of the price you are willing to accept. Whether a specific instances of haggling are flagrantly and _egregiously_ immoral is obviously a case-by-case thing, and certainly if both parties are mutually and happily engaging in the activity it is doubtlessly more moral than if somebody who doesn’t want to haggle is being coerced into doing so. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/27 "2010-07-21T22:17:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Of course there’s something borderline immoral about haggling - it relies on the deliberate misrepresentation of the price you are willing to accept. Whether a specific instances of haggling are flagrantly and _egregiously_ immoral is obviously a case-by-case thing, and certainly if both parties are mutually and happily engaging in the activity it is doubtlessly more moral than if somebody who doesn’t want to haggle is being coerced into doing so. Wrong. There is no deliberate misrepresentation. The price on a tag represents the price a merchant is asking and a price they will readily accept. Whether they will accept a lower price is a separate issue that you find out if you make an offer other than the ticketed price. No dishonesty is present. I can’t understand how either merchant or customer can really be coerced into haggling. If a customer makes an offer I decide to accept it or not. There’s no coercion. If a customer decides not to haggle then make your choice based on the asking price. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/28 "2010-07-21T22:20:41Z")
Haggling is one method of price discrimination, which is in general a good thing. Suppose I have a product, and I need to sell it for X dollars if I’m to make a profit. If a customer comes in who can only afford to spend a little more than X on it, I’d like to sell it to him for that price, since any sale I make a profit on is good. On the other hand, if some other customer comes in who’s willing and able to pay Y for it, where Y \>\> X, then I’d like to sell it to that customer for Y, since, while any profit is good, more profit is better. Haggling accomplishes this, since the folks who can afford to pay the higher price won’t spend the time on haggling. So someone for whom money is tight can spend the time to get a price they can afford, and someone who’s willing to pay a higher price for a speedy transaction can do that, too. With that said, a salesman who encounters someone in the latter category, who won’t name a price, is just a bad salesman. The whole point of how it’s supposed to work is that if the customer says “Just tell me the price”, the salesman names a high figure, and if the customer’s OK with it, hey, great, big profit. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/29 "2010-07-21T22:24:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Wrong. There is no deliberate misrepresentation. The price on a tag represents the price a merchant is asking and a price they will readily accept. Whether they will accept a lower price is a separate issue that you find out if you make an offer other than the ticketed price. No dishonesty is present. “Hey - you told me that cost $5, but you let the guy after me have it for $4? What gives?” “Oh, the $4 price is just for annoying argumentive people; nice people who assume that the price I ask is the price I ask are charged a premium. Didn’t you read the disclaimer?” > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I can’t understand how either merchant or customer can really be coerced into haggling. If a customer makes an offer I decide to accept it or not. There’s no coercion. If a customer decides not to haggle then make your choice based on the asking price. You’re right. They can be shafted by immoral con-men setting absurdly high prices instead, or do without. (Especially when you’re talking about luxury items like shelter or the ability to get to work.) Silly me. Tell me, is it _ever_ possible to coerce somebody? I mean, you could always just choose to be shot, after all. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/30 "2010-07-21T23:10:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > “Hey - you told me that cost $5, but you let the guy after me have it for $4? What gives?” > > “Oh, the $4 price is just for annoying argumentative people; nice people who assume that the price I ask is the price I ask are charged a premium. Didn’t you read the disclaimer?” Regardless of how you spin it, there is no dishonesty. What gives? He offered me $4 and I decided to take it but my asking price is $5. Are sales and coupons also immoral? > [@](#): > > You’re right. They can be shafted by immoral con-men setting absurdly high prices instead, or do without. (Especially when you’re talking about luxury items like shelter or the ability to get to work.) Silly me. That is silly indeed. There’s nothing remotely like a con involved in an asking price. There are economic principles of supply and demand and perceived worth. Yes people can be greedy but that’s not what we’re discussing. There are no fixed prices since worth fluctuates on a regular basis. > [@](#): > > Tell me, is it _ever_ possible to coerce somebody? I mean, you could always just choose to be shot, after all. Would you care to make a relevant point? I hope asking that question isn’t coercion? Perhaps you could describe exactly how someone is coerced into haggling while trying to make a purchase. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/31 "2010-07-21T23:13:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Haggling accomplishes this, since the folks who can afford to pay the higher price won’t spend the time on haggling . Wow is that wrong. I can assure you. Sometimes those who can most afford to pay sticker price are the biggest pains when it comes to haggling. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/32 "2010-07-21T23:18:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Regardless of how you spin it, there is no dishonesty. > What gives? > He offered me $4 and I decided to take it but my asking price is $5. In other words you were lying about what you are willing to accept. You told the guy who _didn’t_ haggle that you required $5 for the item - and he had it in _writing_. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Are sales and coupons also immoral? Debatably, coupons moreso than sales. But in such a debate, haggling would be least moral of all. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > That is silly indeed. There’s nothing remotely like a con involved in an asking price. There are economic principles of supply and demand and perceived worth. Yes people can be greedy but that’s not what we’re discussing. There are no fixed prices since worth fluctuates on a regular basis. > > Would you care to make a relevant point? I hope asking that question isn’t coercion? > Perhaps you could describe exactly how someone is coerced into haggling while trying to make a purchase. My relevent point is that I considered your entire “there is no coersion to haggle when I refuse to give you a fair price if you don’t” argument to be complete and utter bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/33 "2010-07-21T23:47:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > In other words you were lying about what you are willing to accept. You told the guy who _didn’t_ haggle that you required $5 for the item - and he had it in _writing_. Wrong! You said you would sell it for $5. Nothing was said about the **minimum** requirement for selling it. That is discovered through haggling. No dishonesty there. the ticket says “I will gladly sell this item for $5.” that doesn’t mean I won’t sell it for $4 a little less gladly. It also says nothing about the worth of the item. > [@](#): > > Debatably, coupons moreso than sales. But in such a debate, haggling would be least moral of all. Not that you’ve shown in any way. > [@](#): > > My relevent point is that I considered your entire “there is no coersion to haggle when I refuse to give you a fair price if you don’t” argument to be complete and utter bullshit. You’ve made an assertion and you’ve have provided no reasonable argument for or example of. Evidently you made statements you can’t defend in GD. At this point what you consider bullshit doesn’t concern me. How do we determine what a fair price is? By setting one and not haggling? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/34 "2010-07-21T23:53:42Z")
**cosmosdan** , I feel that I have made my case clearly, and see nothing in your responses that refutes it. I leave you with your confidence that everyone disagrees with me. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/35 "2010-07-22T00:44:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > **cosmosdan** , I feel that I have made my case clearly, and see nothing in your responses that refutes it. I leave you with your confidence that everyone disagrees with me. You haven’t made any case at all and you’ve avoided direct questions. This retreat, so atypical of your usual style, says more than your posts have, even with the transparent posturing. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/36 "2010-07-22T06:40:01Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > How are things in Yemen these days? We were last there about 3 years ago and have tried to find time to go back… always a bit unstable there tho. I bargained for everything there from headscarves to water. One of my favorite places. I’ve only been here about a week, but Sanaa is great. Yemen is already my favorite ME country, the people are really nice and the weather is great. I can’t get over how much khat they chew, it is mind blowing. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/37 "2010-07-22T12:31:46Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Although this is fun and satisfying on a personal level it’s not something that will create a satisfied and loyal customer. A good sale means both parties are happy with the outcome. If you’re trying to build a relationship that is, if you don’t want to see, or don’t expect to see the customer again a win/lose negotiation is valid of course. Personally I prefer to work with win/win exclusively. _In my experience_, the people who wish to spend time haggling are not the customers I wanna see ever again. I have had IIRC 3 people try to get the price down on an item in the past 15 years. Those three people were not good customers, and are to this day not pleasant people. **But** those three are still customers. Win/win. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/38 "2010-07-22T12:32:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ooooooh yeah… the “you” in your sentence referred to the salesman, not the OP. I get it now. > > In that case, you make a very compelling and erudite point, and I salute you on your intellectual acuity. Likewise 😉 God we’re smart, aren’t we? I bet you’re a handsome devil too! ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/39 "2010-07-22T12:41:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The purpose of the haggling system is so that you can rip the other person off. When the buyer instigates the haggle, it’s because they want to rip off the seller. When a seller instigates it, it’s because they want to rip off the buyer. This can be true and often is. There are two schools of negotiation: win/lose and win/win. Short term, win/lose has the potential to be more profitable, for one party in the negotiation. Long term win/win is more profitable to both parties. I used to do win/lose negotiation and most poor to good salespeople tend to, then I improved, and got some serious negotiation education. Now I exclusively do win/win negotiations. The payoff for both parties is enormous. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442/40 "2010-07-22T13:07:08Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > This can be true and often is. There are two schools of negotiation: win/lose and win/win. > > Short term, win/lose has the potential to be more profitable, for one party in the negotiation. Long term win/win is more profitable to both parties. I used to do win/lose negotiation and most poor to good salespeople tend to, then I improved, and got some serious negotiation education. Now I exclusively do win/win negotiations. The payoff for both parties is enormous. What exactly do you mean by win/win? Technically the payoff is better for the merchant of people pay full price and don’t haggle at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bargaining-for-things-yea-or-nay/547442.md?page=3)