# Barrington Chadsworth IV: Upper class American name? Why? How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 10, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365 "2010-02-10T02:49:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/1 "2010-02-10T02:49:07Z")
IN a recent Tom Tomorrow comic, he mentions the name “Barrington Chadsworth IV” as an example of an American “WASP” ivy-league, upper crust name. I have seen names like this before, usually in movies. [http://www.credoaction.com/comics/2010/02/deep-undercover-the-polt-thickens/](http://www.credoaction.com/comics/2010/02/deep-undercover-the-polt-thickens/) Question: What is with these type of names? Are these for real? Do they signify “upper class” status all over the country? Or just the Northeast? Do our well-bred friends in England and Europe have the same type of names? It seems these names have similarities in that 1) they use a surname as a given name, (such as “Barrington”), and then the entire name is reused for as many generations as possible (Barrington Chadsworth III, IV, ad inf.) So, is this some way to separate their Ivy-league children from the rest of us slumdogs named Jimmy and Janie? If it is, why doesn’t the Nobility of England use similar surnames-as-given-names? And for that matter, why did the American Ivy leaguers use this naming convention, (if in fact they did), when the English/UK monarchs themselves, the veritable height of Anglican class, never seem to name their children like this? Never heard of a King Barrington before. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/2 "2010-02-10T02:51:25Z")
Just offering that “xxx-ington” “xxx-worth” as a name is pretty much the stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/3 "2010-02-10T03:11:07Z")
For what it’s worth, all of these name-elements originally derive from Old English placenames, so placename \> surname \> given name and/or stereotypical uppercrust names. -ing-: associated with / called after [Old English name in previous syllable(s)] -ton (OE tūn): farmstead, village, manor, estate -worth: enclosure, enclosed settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/4 "2010-02-10T03:15:17Z")
In the book Freakanomics they mention how first names tend to move down in social class. Upper class people use first names but once they notice that lower class people use those names they start using a different set of first names. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/5 "2010-02-10T03:21:40Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > In the book Freakanomics they mention how first names tend to move down in social class. Upper class people use first names but once they notice that lower class people use those names they start using a different set of first names. Which is why there are no upper-class people with names like Elizabeth, Charles, or William today. (In other words, I question the premise.) Names certainly have trends: old names and name patterns are retired, or revived, and new ones are created. I’m sure those trends vary by class. But especially if those names are tied to religious or historical figures, I doubt if the upper class abandons them just because the lower class adopts them. I haven’t read _Freakanomics_: do the authors give stats to support this? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/6 "2010-02-10T03:49:20Z")
Here are some of the most aristocratic English surnames circa 1610: Carey, Clifford, Cobham, Compton, Dudley, Hatton, Herbert, Howard, Lee, Manners, Neville, Percy, Radcliffe, Russell, Sackville, Scrope, Sidney, Somerset, Scudamore, Stanley, Talbot. That’s about as “old money” as you can possibly get, as all those names belong to landed nobility with close ties to the royal family. It seems to me that the surname as forename thing is mostly an American phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/7 "2010-02-10T04:08:29Z")
That name to me would signify “wanna-be.” It’s right up there with the Lexus and the logo-covered handbag. P.S. Scrope? Bwaaaa ha ha haaaaa! ! ! ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/8 "2010-02-10T04:15:42Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > That name to me would signify “wanna-be.” It’s right up there with the Lexus and the logo-covered handbag. What makes it different is the IV. You don’t get to be “the fourth” without a level of family stability that isn’t consistent with the logo-covered handbag. Also, for the true upper crust, those actually are their family names and the ancestors actually accomplished something worthy of respect. In the wannabe scenario, the names are picked because they sound good or belonged to someone in a movie (or on a soap opera - gah!) Yes, the authors of Freakanomics cite tons of statistics to back up their chapter about names moving down. I listened to the audiobook so alas don’t have any cites handy. IIRC there are some classic names that “stay classy,” but there was a definite trend with names that started classy and went downhill. Man, I need to get some sleep. When I went to log in to this thread I literally typed my screen name as “Harrington.” LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/9 "2010-02-10T04:21:14Z")
I knew a lot of farm kids and black kids in high school who were II, III or IVs. Seems to me that the family stability required to do this is not exclusive to nobles. I think it’s mostly an American tradition. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/10 "2010-02-10T04:37:16Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I knew a lot of farm kids and black kids in high school who were II, III or IVs. Seems to me that the family stability required to do this is not exclusive to nobles. I think it’s mostly an American tradition. I think that Rastus IV, or Homer Lester III don’t quite shriek aristocracy as the aforementioned, tho. Could be wrong. OTOH, I think if my last name were Scrope, that would be just an invitation to be called Scrote, so, I might change my name to Rastus Homer Lester VII. hh ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/11 "2010-02-10T04:40:10Z")
The last name as a first name is a snob thing too. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/12 "2010-02-10T04:43:05Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I think that Rastus IV, or Homer Lester III don’t quite shriek aristocracy as the aforementioned, tho. Could be wrong. > OTOH, I think if my last name were Scrope, that would be just an invitation to be called Scrote, so, I might change my name to Rastus Homer Lester VII. > > hh I don’t mean that, I mean there will be kids with names like George Barker IV or Thomas Deckard IV - it’s not like all farm kids and black kids nowadays have stereotypical names. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/13 "2010-02-10T05:59:21Z")
I agree with **Argent Towers**. Both surnames used as first names and use of jr. III, IV etc. (apart from the case of monarchs) are largely American customs, even though some Americans seem to imagine names like that sound British, probably because they are actually associated with the US WASP upper class, who seem very Anglo to many Americans, even though they are really from New England rather than yer actual England. By now, however, some surnames that have been made into first names have be exported back across the Atlantic to become British first names too, thanks to Hollywood and American TV. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/14 "2010-02-10T06:12:37Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Which is why there are no upper-class people with names like Elizabeth, Charles, or William today. > > (In other words, I question the premise.) > > Names certainly have trends: old names and name patterns are retired, or revived, and new ones are created. I’m sure those trends vary by class. But especially if those names are tied to religious or historical figures, I doubt if the upper class abandons them just because the lower class adopts them. I haven’t read _Freakanomics_: do the authors give stats to support this? I read the book some time ago, and yes, I think they did give stats, and I, too, question not the premise, but their conclusion. The problem arises when you try to claim one event caused the other. This is especially difficult when you are comparing two time cycles. If Charles is popular in upper class names in 1910, 1930, 1950 and 1970, and popular in lower classes in 1920, 1940 and 1960, which came first? Was that a foreshock of the next or an aftershock of the last earthquake? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/15 "2010-02-10T11:45:33Z")
Fifty years ago that was certainly the stereotype of an old-money name. Consider the character of Chatsworth Osborne Jr. in _The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis_: > **[The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis (TV Series 1959–1963) ⭐ 7.7 | Comedy, Family](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052490/)** > > 30m | TV-Y7 I’m not so sure that today the stereotype holds up as well. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/16 "2010-02-10T13:17:57Z")
I think these are just WASP names. They are clearly English. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/17 "2010-02-10T13:34:59Z")
the last name as first or middle name thing comes in when mum marries but wants to keep her money last name going. hopefully the family will remember little aster knickerbacker and a trust will be placed on the kidlet. or she could be the last one with the foo foo moneyed name and by putting it into the name of the children keeps it going. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/18 "2010-02-10T14:13:28Z")
Freakanomics had stats for the names but I can’t recall where they got the stats from and how they matched them up with income levels. I know when I hear certain unusual first names like Campbell I assume the person came from money. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/19 "2010-02-10T15:05:23Z")
I think the OP started a hare by roping in the English aristocracy (let alone the royal family, who are another kettle of caviar altogether). I don’t think there’s any necessary connection between the naming conventions of the upper classes in the US and UK – “old money” in America doesn’t have any particular correlation to European aristocracy anyway. For what it’s worth, English aristocratic families do often use family surnames as given names, but they tend towards a superfluity of given names in any case, with the surnames shuffled towards the back of the pack. So in the UK you might find The Honourable Rupert Eustace Henry Barrington FitzRoy Chadsworth, but he’d be unlikely to go by “Barrington” unless all his other forenames were in use by other close living members of his family – and everyone would call him “Baz”, anyway. It’s not only upper class families in the UK who use surnames as given names, though: the decidedly working class family of actor Robson Green does, for instance. His uncle Mattheson is my mother’s hairdresser, as it happens. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365/20 "2010-02-10T15:27:45Z")
The other pretension is going by the full name - “Barrington” instead of “Barry” (we’ll skip the Barack/Barry discussion) or Franklin not Frank, etc. A number of people tend to use their midle name if their first name does not translate appropriately to today’s sensibilities. What’s amazing is how many recent US Presidents completely changed their names - IIRC, Reagan, Ford, and Clinton(?). That’s quite a large proportion compared to the general population. A friend of mine said he mentioned to his mother once “Aha! I know why my middle name is Keith! It’s out Scottish clan name.” She replied “No. It’s because there was a really good looking actor on TV named Brian Keith, so your first two names are Brian Keith.” Then I explained to him how the dad in _Family Affair_ lived with his “butler” Mr. French - yeah, right. I assume this subtlety was lost on innocent suburbia. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barrington-chadsworth-iv-upper-class-american-name-why-how/528365.md?page=2)