# Barry Bonds is going down. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437 "2006-03-07T22:13:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/141 "2006-03-10T21:58:07Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So am I (and I’m against the DH as well)… which is why I don’t want those bastards in the front office to even lay a finger on those records. The beauty of baseball records is that they all come together. It’s like double ledger accounting in that, in the end, everything matches up. To wreck that symmatry of baseball statistics would be worse than any one player or group of players could ever do to the game. I dunno. The homerun crown is the crown jewel of baseball records. Hank Aaron is probably my favorite non-Phillie player of all-time. I bought into the McGwire hoopla when he broke the record, though I feel like a dope now–but then I believed it was because we were seeing greatness, the breaking of a record that rightly stood until someone worthy surpassed it. Now we know it was all bullshit. I feel cheated. How exciting would it be to have a legitimate record holder, someone who snuck up on Hank’s record until we all noticed and held our breath while we waited for that last homerun, the one that made him immortal? I don’t know how old you are, but I remember Henry Aaron getting the record. It was awesome. Bonds will pass the Babe, then Hank, and it just sickens me. Perhaps he’ll never be surpassed, not if steroid abuse is stringently guarded against. And Bonds, who hit–what?–300 homeruns with aid of steroids will forever be the homerun king. Nope, I don’t see this one evening out, everything ain’t gonna “match up.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/142 "2006-03-10T22:00:35Z")
Oh, but you’re absolutely right about the DH. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/143 "2006-03-11T00:02:58Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I dunno. The homerun crown is the crown jewel of baseball records. Hank Aaron is probably my favorite non-Phillie player of all-time. I bought into the McGwire hoopla when he broke the record, though I feel like a dope now–but then I believed it was because we were seeing greatness, the breaking of a record that rightly stood until someone worthy surpassed it. > > Now we know it was all bullshit. I feel cheated. How exciting would it be to have a legitimate record holder, someone who snuck up on Hank’s record until we all noticed and held our breath while we waited for that last homerun, the one that made him immortal? I don’t know how old you are, but I remember Henry Aaron getting the record. It was awesome. > > Bonds will pass the Babe, then Hank, and it just sickens me. Perhaps he’ll never be surpassed, not if steroid abuse is stringently guarded against. And Bonds, who hit–what?–300 homeruns with aid of steroids will forever be the homerun king. Nope, I don’t see this one evening out, everything ain’t gonna “match up.” Of course it will… because no one is going to touch the stats. Pete Rose may have bet on baseball, but no one is going to touch his record. No matter what someone does off the field, what happens on the field is permanently recorded - no Commish will ever touch it. He’ll get lynched. Keeping a proper accounting of what happened on the field is sacred and even if baseball tries to wipe it out (never happen), the sabermatricians and other stat keepers won’t follow suit (Hell, they never followed the Elias Sports Bureau before, why now?). And of course with all the relevations about greenies, Aaron’s record may not be ‘legitimate’ in the eyes of those who are against performance enhancers. Not to mention one of the greatest records in all of baseball history, 2130 consecutive games played, may also be ‘tainted’ seeing as how amphetamines help ward off fatigue and they were all over the place in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Ripken was popping greenies (in fact I think it is more likely than not that he was). The difference is that I don’t see this mythic past. Every record is flawed. Ruth didn’t play against the best players, Aaron was probably on amphetamines, in the 90s batters and pitchers were on steroids. Part of the same progression of history. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/144 "2006-03-11T01:25:55Z")
The [Onion](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46188) has had the best headline about this: “Barry Bonds Took Steroids, Reports Everyone Who Has Ever Watched Baseball” ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/145 "2006-03-11T05:53:51Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Someone posited (Can’t remember who, sorry) that anabolic steroids does the same thing as lifting, it just accelerates the process. I was pointing out that lifting weights doesn’t have the side effects using steroids has. > > And yes, again, if somoene is caught drinking on the job, they should be punished. Just. Like. Everyone. Else. First, I never said anything about “on the job”. But, people are punished for drinking on the job because it negatively affects performance, not because of the effects it has on their health. Plus the punishment is coming from the team, not the league; it has nothing to do with cheating or gaining an unfair advantage. If a player is using and it’s not against the rules, how in the world does this constitute cheating? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/146 "2006-03-11T05:56:31Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > If a player is using and it’s not against the rules, how in the world does this constitute cheating? But it is against the rules. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/147 "2006-03-11T06:54:29Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > But it is against the rules. Case closed. But it is not against the rules. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/148 "2006-03-11T06:56:36Z")
^ responding to pre-2002, pre MLB testing (which is what Yookeroo was refering to) ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/149 "2006-03-11T17:38:24Z")
Oh, good god. We’re not talking about what happened prior to 2002. We’re talking about now. Quit living in the past. There’s a rule against it, there’s a law against it. You don’t like it, we get it. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/150 "2006-03-11T18:03:44Z")
So, when I was hooked on body building (early 20s) ((MY early 20s, not THE early 20s, you bunch of uncle fuckers)), and I was taking ginsing and protein shakes, and scarfing bananas tuna and eggs, those other guys that I actually saw injecting weren’t just being stupid (even as a youth, I had some scruples), they were committing a felony act. Man, the things one finds out they don’t know after all… Still, in my mind anyways, Barry isn’t an ass because he may (or may not ::giggle:: ) take steroids, he takes steroids (if proven) because he’s an ass. **Mo** , Linda’s asking about you. Stop by and say hey? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/151 "2006-03-11T18:52:40Z")
Well, nobody ever said users were all that bright. Yes, hon, I will. Promise. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/152 "2006-03-11T23:51:24Z")
Perhaps this came up earlier in the thread; my apologies if I missed it. I heard two days ago on Sporting News Radio that steroids had been banned in 1991 by MLB. [This article](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2217361) seems to confirm that. > [@](#): > > • Baseball ignored its own rules about steroids. In 1991, then-Commissioner Fay Vincent effectively put steroids on baseball’s list of banned substances in a memo sent to all MLB teams. Baseball could not test for steroids, the memo said, but should a player be caught with steroids, he would be sent for treatment and subject to penalties. This memo was never publicized and, seemingly, was largely ignored by both management and the players’ union. Commissioner Bud Selig reissued the same memo in 1997, with minor changes but with the same lack of conviction. Several GMs at the time tell ESPN the Magazine the memo probably was lost in the blizzard of other paperwork coming out of the commissioner’s office. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/153 "2006-03-11T23:57:43Z")
Scruloose, what a great cite! I was not aware of that. That is significant, I would say. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/154 "2006-03-12T00:08:01Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > But it is against the rules. Case closed. It is now. It wasn’t until recently and people still think someone is cheating if they used before it was made agaisnt the rules. They weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/155 "2006-03-12T00:25:05Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > It is now. It wasn’t until recently and people still think someone is cheating if they used before it was made agaisnt the rules. They weren’t. Read Scruloose’s cite! Your position is a non-starter as of now, unless someone refudiates the cite. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/156 "2006-03-12T20:44:09Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Read Scruloose’s cite! Your position is a non-starter as of now, unless someone refudiates the cite. Oh, I don’t know. People are willing to demonize Bonds whether or not there’s a rule against it. They would still consider it “cheating” regarldess of the rules. And I still don’t have a good answer as to why steroids have become the Great Satan of sports. Athletes have been using performance enhancing chemicals for decades, why the steroid witchhunt now? And I still haven’t got a satisfactory answer as to why the line is drawn at steroids. Where’s the outrage for players having performance enhancing surgery? But if he broke the rule, send him to therapy and subject him to the penalties. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/157 "2006-03-12T23:44:01Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Oh, I don’t know. People are willing to demonize Bonds whether or not there’s a rule against it. They would still consider it “cheating” regarldess of the rules. Come now, don’t move the goal posts when the kick is in the air. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/158 "2006-03-12T23:46:48Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Oh, I don’t know. People are willing to demonize Bonds whether or not there’s a rule against it He’s done a thorough job of demonizing himself. He’s worked hard to make himself as unlikable and unadmirable a person as possible. Now, everyone has an excuse for whatever anti-Bonds feelings they’d like to entertain. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/159 "2006-03-13T00:47:27Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > How is that more important? We should ignore cheating just because he’s one of only a small group of people that make it to the major league level? > > What about racers that win because of _egregious_ cheating? And we know this shit happens, and we know that to a degree every trace team tries to get away with as much as possible, but NASCAR is highly regulated so it isn’t near as bad as people try and say it is. Bu nonetheless everything you said at Bonds you could say about someone who gets the checkered flag at the Daytona 500 and it comes out that his car was in violation of so many regulations it was unprecedented in the history of the sport, > **[Smokey Yunick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick)** > > Henry "Smokey" Yunick (May 25, 1923 – May 9, 2001) was an American mechanic and car designer associated with motorsports. Yunick was deeply involved in the early years of NASCAR, and he is probably most associated with that racing genre. He participated as a racer, designer, and held other jobs related to the sport, but was best known as a mechanic, builder, and crew chief. > Yunick was twice NASCAR mechanic of the year; and his teams would include 50 of the most famous drivers in the sport, winn... Everybody loved Smokey and his 7/8ths scale car. Whadda gonna do? But that’s different from this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/160 "2006-03-13T01:08:44Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > And I still haven’t got a satisfactory answer as to why the line is drawn at steroids. Where’s the outrage for players having performance enhancing surgery? Are you seriously making the argument that there’s a performance enhancing surgery? Give me a break. The only thing that’s even close is the Tommy John surgery, and there’s no evidence that it improves performace. For every guy who came back stronger there’s 10 who were never the same, and most people accredit the improvements following the surgery to maturity (they are always 2 years older and more experienced), strengthened muscles due to physical therapy and most critically restructured mechanics taught by professionals instead of high school coaches and untrained fathers. As to why there’s more vigor over steroids compared to amphetimines or anything else, well it’s because steroids effect is so obvious and persistent. Greenies have an effect of one game, steroids last entire careers. Greenies have a very intangible impact, the logic being that it helps focus and mental fatigue. There’s little evidence of a direct correlation between performance and use. That doesn’t excuse them, but it’s why the pubic is more angry about steroids. Steroids turn 12 year careers into 18 year careers and turn slap-hitting middle infielders into triple crown threats. Steroids not only make players stronger, they improve physical recovery time and reaction time. The quantity of impact between steroids and any other performance enhancer is an order of magnitude greater. Hence the outrage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437.md?page=9)